the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Hi everyone!

A newb question... Even after years of training, as well as stepping forward works, jumping back feels weak, and as if there was a delay.
For example from a santi-shi posture. It feels like the leg wants to extend, to make the jump back, but it is already extended.
Would you have any recommendation or insight from this short description?

I think you are talking about "bumping". The way we were taught in ziranmen was to scoot back by pushing off with both feet at exactly the same time and "yanking" the dan tien in a backwards motion.

He Jing Han show the same skill it in Mabu stance at the end of this vid. It's hard to do in Mabu. You can can practice going up, down, left, right, spinning etc.



It's part of lightness skill. The exercises in here are essentially the same as what we do - learning to jump without bending the knee, walking on bricks, walking the basket etc

Just to clarify, by "jumping back" I am assuming you meant literally jumping back and not stepping back.

Interesting ideas, thank you!

and yes, jumping back. The first time I faced this problem was during a xingyi sparring form (wu xing sheng ke).
deflect left to right with left hand,
forward beng right,
forward beng left,
backward pao,
backward heng,
jump back and deflect downward with left hand (is there an official name for it?),
forward pi,
forward zuan,
turn, repeat.

While trying to find an example on youtube I see that most seem to evade the problem by doing two full steps back instead of a jump.

I do not study the form that you are referring to, but there are several places in other forms that I have learned that may be relevant. One is the San He Dao form (12 animals Xingyi saber) that uses a hop back similar to the mabu “bumping” mentioned by zrm, except that the stance goes from a back weighted bow stance (while sweeping an opponent’s leg) to a small move backward ending in mabu. However, the aim here, as I understand it, is not so much to jump back as it is to use a slight retreat with one’s body mass in order to change the momentum of the swung saber and to allow it to be rapidly pulled by the body mass back to the body (where it is “embraced”) as a counter to the opponent’s intercepting strike that targets the wrist. It allows the saber to be pulled out of range of the counterattack.

The other back weight stances that retreat without shifting forward first come from Taiji staff and spear forms. It is not unusual to thrust or strike from a back weighted stance (allowing one to maintain control of one’s body position even if an opponent grabs the shaft of the staff or spear and tries to pull). In this case the rear leg is simply lifted, and one “falls” backward a foot or two. Since the rear supporting leg is lifted while the front leg stays in contact with the ground, the body will move backward and the front leg will then follow by being dragged/slid back after the rear foot has reestablished its farther back position on the ground.

Here is one way to do a backward jump. The goal is to be able to jump back at least 10 feet distance.



At 0.24, 0.26, 0.38.

In Xing Yi you use "vertical bump" skill combined with a 180 spin to change stance from right foot forward to left foot forward at the end of the Jingang Bashi form. You can use the same lifting skill to jump backwards.

More interesting concepts and ideas, thank you!

But, never heard about the xingyi jingang bashi, do you have a video of that to get an idea of what it is?

This is jingang bashi



I terms of bumping/lifting I was talking about the jump shown at 0.33 and 0.54, but the backward jump at 0.27 could also be relevant.

Squeeeez wrote:For example from a santi-shi posture. It feels like the leg wants to extend, to make the jump back, but it is already extended. Would you have any recommendation or insight from this short description?

Front foot pushes - rear foot goes back.

The secret lies in the toes. Keep the heels of both feet just a little off the ground (it should not be visible). Then even though the back leg carries most of the weight the weight does not need to shift forward to jump back. The toes push into the ground and the rear foot goes back.

When you land don't drop the heels on the ground. Again keep them slightly off the ground.

Feels awkward? Practice it 100s-1000s of times & keep the heels just a little off the ground all the time. Little hops will become easier and the body won't need to lean forward to carry the weight in order to shift back. This way no jump is required.

That being said - jumping back will also be boosted with this training.

I don't have a video of this. Just how I train it but even with a video it should be hard to see the heel is slightly raised.

BTW - I know most will probably say that the heel is supposed to be on the ground in XY. There is a time & place for this & it is not where mobility is the priority.

zrm wrote:This is jingang bashi

It's very similar to the Xing Jing Chuan that we train.

johnwang wrote:It's very similar to the Xing Jing Chuan that we train.

Yeah that's Interesting. Any idea about the history behind the XIng Jing set?

You'll find Jingang bashi in a number of Hebei Xing yi schools. A lot of Xing Yi people bring the feet together before the jump.



Which is fine. You can probably generate more power that way. However, I've found that if you keep your feet apart before the jump it forces you to train a more internal lift because you can't use your legs as much.

zrm wrote:Any idea about the history behind the XIng Jing set?

形精拳 (Xing Jing Chuan) came from 刘纬祥 (刘二彪子)(1864～1936).

郭云深 -> 刘纬祥 (刘二彪子) -> my teacher

johnwang wrote:

zrm wrote:Any idea about the history behind the XIng Jing set?

形精拳 (Xing Jing Chuan) came from 刘纬祥 (刘二彪子)(1864～1936).

郭云深 -> 刘纬祥 (刘二彪子) -> my teacher

Ah ok. Our lineage comes from Li Cun Yi. The Shang Xing Yi guys have their own Ba Shi version passed down from Geng Cheng Xin. Looks like the form is pretty old and originally came via Li Qi Lan, who taught all three (Li Cun Yi, Liu Qi Lan, Liu Weixiang).