Heng and Ha 哼哈

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Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby Yeung on Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:25 am

Someone asked me about the two breaths of Heng and Ha 哼哈二气 and I think they are originated in the teaching of Bajiquan; Heng is a nasal sound and Ha is a vocal sound. Please confirm this for me, as I only learned the small frame a long time ago.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby Peacedog on Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:26 pm

Temple Style Tai Chi out of Taiwan uses these as well.

It has two systems of vocalization. Heng and Ha are used in Gold Bell training to throw incoming force down into the ground and to rebound force from the feet outward.

The other is directional for going up, down, in and out.

I know a lot of the qi gong technology in Temple Style comes out of White Crane in southern China. Outside of that I am unaware of any connection to Bajiquan.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:56 pm

I doubt that they are originally style bound, but probably quite old. I know that they are used in Baji and Xingyi for striking power. Some Bagua and Tai Chi schools teach them as well. They are both vocal sounds. The will affect the striking force so that the quality will be different. But I believe that it’s just because that The sounds shape the chest area differently. So the energy or whatever you want to call it get different qualities because there are different body structures behind the punch. One will create a more devastating blow, one will do less damage. So it’s sort of up to you how evil you wake up feeling. Making it soundless will work just as fine when you have understood the difference.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby Ed Ladnar on Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:13 pm

Ha-Heng. A-Un. Om. Open-Close. Exhale-Inhale. Beginning-End. Yin-yang.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby Walk the Torque on Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:44 pm

Bao wrote: one will do less damage. So it’s sort of up to you how evil you wake up feeling. Making it soundless will work just as fine when you have understood the difference.


I'm with Bao on this. The sounds are a good 'way in' to learn to control your body and therefore power. Once you become familiar with the feeling the sound engenders you can start to recreate that feeling and pop! bob's your uncle.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby cloudz on Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:28 am

Certainly was a thing in Yang family tradition of TCC, never really heard it discussed in the purported orginal system... ha. but that may mean squat too.
these days, it may still be an 'inner door' thing amongst some Yang tai chi people.
or not, as the case may be.
I wouldn't really know.

In my experience it works on the martial level for sure and yes, probably has a deeper connection and or origin to cultivation work, perhaps.
That would seem to make sense to me on some level, but..
Who can say who or what inspired who or what, exactly?

regards
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:41 am

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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:59 am

word(and sound) can have a creative or destructive force. Kototama the power of words/sound was a part of Morihei Ueshibas practice.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby ors on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:04 am

Actually Heng-Ha is quite an old concept. The names originally were given to the two guards of buddhist temples. 哼哈二將 Hēng Hā Ėr Jiàng.
This concept as a breathing method also exists in chen style taijiquan. Chen Fake had an opinion in our oral transmission, that sonunds something like "to win over an enemy one heng and one ha is just enough". This means that with only one closing and one opening movements you can overcome on your enemy...

Just as Yeung has written heng is more likely a nasal and ha is a vocal sound. As you breath in you vocalize "heng", and breath out with a "ha" sound. "Heng" sound is more like "hmp"... :)
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:38 am

ors wrote:Actually Heng-Ha is quite an old concept. The names originally were given to the two guards of buddhist temples. 哼哈二將 Hēng Hā Ėr Jiàng.
This concept as a breathing method also exists in chen style taijiquan. Chen Fake had an opinion in our oral transmission, that sonunds something like "to win over an enemy one heng and one ha is just enough". This means that with only one closing and one opening movements you can overcome on your enemy...

Just as Yeung has written heng is more likely a nasal and ha is a vocal sound. As you breath in you vocalize "heng", and breath out with a "ha" sound. "Heng" sound is more like "hmp"... :)

Idk. I used to think it was that. But in our bagua 8 healing sounds- Heng is accompanied by the movements of a FaLi using the bolang (Crashing wave) mechanic of the spine. I think maybe (and the reason why nobody has a straight answer) is that ‘Ha’ is the sound you would make during the inhale that coincides with the Fanlang (Reverse Wave) mechanic of the spine, to have a better effect on an opponent.

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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby ors on Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:25 am

Dear D_Glenn!

What I have written is not my immagination or my own understanding of heng-ha. It is what my teacher has taught to us. It is not an absolut truth at all. It is just how we use this in our lineage coming from Chen Fake throught Tian Xiuchen and Feng Zhiqiang.
As I understand the power generation and spinal wave movements of your bagua lineage is quite different from our method. It seem the total reverse of it. Just like your vocalization.
While we use heng, we breath in, we rotate the dantian backward and close the body while gathering force. With the sound "ha" we emit force. Dantian rotating foreward, exhaling etc. Just the complete opposite of your method. :)

Oh! Plus we use other merthods for power generation as well, so this is "just" one of them. ;)
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:36 am

ors wrote:Actually Heng-Ha is quite an old concept. The names originally were given to the two guards of buddhist temples. 哼哈二將 Hēng Hā Ėr Jiàng.
This concept as a breathing method also exists in chen style taijiquan. Chen Fake had an opinion in our oral transmission, that sonunds something like "to win over an enemy one heng and one ha is just enough". This means that with only one closing and one opening movements you can overcome on your enemy...

Just as Yeung has written heng is more likely a nasal and ha is a vocal sound. As you breath in you vocalize "heng", and breath out with a "ha" sound. "Heng" sound is more like "hmp"... :)



thanks Ors

had never heard it mentioned in and amongst the chen style canon
you tha man.

agree with you that Ha would seem to fit with exhalation..

regards
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby cloudz on Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:42 am

If I'm being completely honest; i don't find the method enough of a (power) augmentation to bother with it consistently.
every now and again I might revisit it, for fun.

that goes for any vocalisation really.
I can live without it easy enough.

Of course others may find otherwise, but i won't do shit anymore that i don't find worth it.
thankfully(for me) i'm not tied to any one particular kind of baggage or tradition, lineage etc.

I'm free! :D
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby D_Glenn on Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:19 am

Ors,
I totally misread your post, I missed the ‘breathe-IN’ part.

The healing sound likely has nothing to do with this. I was just thinking out loud.

I think I’m on the same page as you though. When my teacher Dr. Xie wanted to emphasize a powerful hit he would vocalize the ‘Ha’.

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Re: Heng and Ha 哼哈

Postby greytowhite on Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:41 am

Heng and Ha are equivalent to the MMM and AH seed syllables of the Three Roots practice. So much of this stuff goes back to esoteric Buddhism. The MMM seed syllable should vibrate in your sinuses near the 3rd eye and the Ha sound should vibrate in your throat. Jingang or Vjara holders. These practices were not separated until recently.
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