Internal punch

[dspyrido]

Does the to grip break training translate to punching short range?

In tournament, 捅(Tong) is only allowed to punch on opponent's shoulder to break the grip. Most of the time, it starts from a side door upper color grip.

I once wrestled with a Judo instructor, Since his loose Judo jacket, I accidently punch on his face instead. He won't wrestle with me after that.

In the video the Tong move looked more like a push than a punch.

Should the Tong move done right damage an arm or potentially numb it or are their rules around how it hits?

I have not tried to punch a SJ jacket wearer but I know if I grabbed an opponents arm & hit (with bare knuckles) the chest or a connecting point between the chest and arm it would not be pleasant. This is even with a short range hit.

[johnwang]

In the video the Tong move looked more like a push than a punch.

Should the Tong move done right damage an arm or potentially numb it or are their rules around how it hits?

I have not tried to punch a SJ jacket wearer but I know if I grabbed an opponents arm & hit (with bare knuckles) the chest or a connecting point between the chest and arm it would not be pleasant. This is even with a short range hit.

This is why I don't believe in short distance punch. People used Tong in wrestling all the time. Not even once that I could feel the power that could hurt me.

Here I just quote someone's statement:

"If you start in a Judo grip, one hand grabbing lapel and one grabbing the sleeve... the hand grabbing the lapel is already in position for the 1 inch / 0 distance punch. The target will probably be the collar bone instead of center of the chest."

If 0 distance punch is truly that powerful, people in jacket wrestling can get hurt badly. It hasn't happened so far. What does that prove? IMO, that just prove 0 distance punch is not that powerful.

[dspyrido]

If 0 distance punch is truly that powerful, people in jacket wrestling can get hurt badly. It hasn't happened so far. What does that prove? IMO, that just prove 0 distance punch is not that powerful.

Now that you mention it - none of the SJ guys I've met had this sort of short punch. They had amazing grips and could rattle brains with the jacket shaking but it was not the punching I am referring to.

I have felt it done on me & I can take punches. It was ... penetrating and painful. Shocking but not because it felt like a shock. More just surprising as I was left thinking - where the f*** did that sort of power came from.

I have been told that my short range hits are also really painful and no one wants to try a 2nd time.

Unfortunately there is no way to compare if what I do is as good as what I felt when I was shown it. I don't think so but I'll never really know.

What I do know is that when it was done on me on a couple occasions - it was powerful.

[MaartenSFS]

John, my point is not that all of the punches should be zero distance. I said no winding up, not no-distance. The punch will do a similar amount of damage no matter if it's at the beginning, middle or end of the motion, but not having to wind it up is one of the key benefits. There are no extra or hidden steps, just BAM.

[johnwang]

John, my point is not that all of the punches should be zero distance. I said no winding up, not no-distance. The punch will do a similar amount of damage no matter if it's at the beginning, middle or end of the motion, but not having to wind it up is one of the key benefits. There are no extra or hidden steps, just BAM.

So no wind up is not the same as 0 distance. I agree that even 6 inch punch can hurt. I just don't believe that 0 distance punch can hurt.

[johnwang]

I have felt it done on me & I can take punches. It was ... penetrating and painful. Shocking but not because it felt like a shock. More just surprising as I was left thinking - where the f*** did that sort of power came from.

If 0 distance punch can hurt your opponent, do you think all SC guys and Judo guys will train it. Judo guys will do anything to get Olympic gold metal.

Is there anything wrong with my logic?

[windwalker]

I have felt it done on me & I can take punches. It was ... penetrating and painful. Shocking but not because it felt like a shock. More just surprising as I was left thinking - where the f*** did that sort of power came from.

If 0 distance punch can hurt your opponent, do you think all SC guys and Judo guys will train it. Judo guys will do anything to get Olympic gold metal.

Is there anything wrong with my logic?

Besides requiring building a different body and methodology

No nothing wrong with your logic.

If the measure is contest people tend to and do work with things that are known.


There is what some call "aiki" which might be called the japanese counterpart
to what is being called internal.
The same claims and demos are used to demo it....as of yet its not clear
if its being used in the competitive events.


This too also requires a different body skill then what is normally developed.

[johnwang]

This too also requires a different body skill then what is normally developed.

Today, money and Olympic gold metal can speak for everything.

If "internal" is superior, boxers, MMA guys, Judo guys will all try to develop it. Money and Olympic gold metal can give them a lot of motivation. If they have not figured this out in the past 20 years, they should have figured it out now.

It's not happening today. Why?

[windwalker]

This too also requires a different body skill then what is normally developed.

Today, money and Olympic gold metal can speak for everything.

If "internal" is superior, boxers, MMA guys, Judo guys will all try to develop it. Money and Olympic gold metal can give them a lot of motivation. If they have not figure out in the past 20 years, they should have figured it out now.

In the many yrs I spent in China, and other places I've never heard anyone claim "superior"
It was always noted as "different". a different method....
The method alone does not claim anything other then being different
just as different CMA styles are to each other.

n-mantis known for its speed..

I've interacted "sparred" with 8-steps, 7* and plum flower mantis practitioners

All them used their extreme speed to make the point of their effectiveness.
The speed is quite amazing and effective, something mantis is known for.

Took a awhile to understand it was not really something I was into, for others it might be.
On a site that's billed as internal it might stand to reason that most who practice or use this method
support it..
....

[dspyrido]

If 0 distance punch can hurt your opponent, do you think all SC guys and Judo guys will train it. Judo guys will do anything to get Olympic gold metal.

Is there anything wrong with my logic?

I like the logic & line of questions. I pay more attention to MMA but I think I can see the problem with SC & Judo. They don't spend countless hours refining striking. They spend it throwing. I believe it is just a case of specialising on what is legal in the sport vs. illegal.

As an example - look at how Ronda Rousey punches vs. her throws & comapre her to Holms.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsUX4F6mhFw

In MMA (mostly in UFC) I have seen really marvellous short range hits. Examples that come to mind both Gustafsson & Jones who both do little pokes that absolutely mess up fighters. Remember this is about using short range power but I have to restate what I said before - I mix the big with the small. Now at the UFC level there are big knockouts but what most people miss or ignore is what leads up to them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iIw1hEN6p8

Note how Gustafsson in the 1st highlight tries to rear choke doesn't get it - does a little tap and bang it's fine. Note in the 2nd which punch rocked the opponent.

The tactic of the short sharp explosive hit is used to mess up fighters and even at times knock them down.

Some might claim "it's not TC or XY or BG to be internal" - I don't believe that for a second. I think these guys have understood the finer mechanics to be able to hurt the opponent with small and large hits.

And what's even more pleasing is seeing MMA guys using their shoulders or short range elbows along with the usual big kicks, knees & punches.

Look at what Jones does to Machida - everyone sees the choke but what was that little elbow he did?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJGF6Wl4_w8&feature=youtu.be

I also love it when jones hits guys against the cage using his shoulders & snaps their head back from next to 0 distance. That is pure 7 stars theory in action. Imagine what a short range head butt would do. There is a good reason why they are banned.

But one big thing to note - if it's MMA and it's a little hit almost 0 judges will score it. They will score that someone fell down or a clean big hit landed. Can't blame them - it's the way the game is measured.

[Trick]

John, my point is not that all of the punches should be zero distance. I said no winding up, not no-distance. The punch will do a similar amount of damage no matter if it's at the beginning, middle or end of the motion, but not having to wind it up is one of the key benefits. There are no extra or hidden steps, just BAM.

That’s why an effective strike is effective in a fight, they are not seen/not telegraphed, all good fighters have this skill to a degree.
And That’s what the internal MA’s solo practice train on from beginning(which probably most don’t/have reflect(ed) over), however the lack of competitive sparring by most internal practitioners makes the internal lack behind in the combat arena.

[johnwang]

Yang Taiji "brush knee" requires your hand to move from behind your ear. It's not "no rewind" and "0 distance".

[Trick]

But bkts is a throw similar to your avatar throw........