Internal punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal punch

Postby Strange on Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:38 pm

how you can move to set-up your opponent like he was standing still is the real kung fu
not this one
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Bhassler on Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:44 pm

marvin8 wrote:Can you explain the "mechanics and variations that work" for a powerful strike other than "weight drop cleanly?"


I can, but it would come dangerously close to putting forth effort, which I'm not willing to do. Dr. Fish summed up the basic mechanics quite nicely, already. Beyond that, if people wanted to play with variations, they might look towards the double-hip of Peter Consterdine, Rory Miller's "hip twitch", or the drop step and shoulder whirl of Jack Dempsey's boxing book (which Rory attributes the basic of his mechanics to). It helps a lot just to play around with a heavy bag and try out different methods, then see how they fit together (or not).
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:16 pm

Mindful Wing Chun
Jun 3, 2019

In this clip Sifu Nima King explains the different methods of one inch punch demonstrations. Bruce Lee made this punch famous however these days there are many people who are claiming to do the same method as his but they are in fact only pushing.

In the Chu Shong Tin method of Wing Chun we perform the punch in a very unique way, much different to that of Bruce Lee's.

to learn this unique method of Wing Chun from beginning to end with step-by-step instructional videos visit: https://www.mindfulwingchun.online


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHpHJhPIb28
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Giles on Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:49 am

Like many well-qualified people in this thread have already said, it’s pretty basic (but important/good) CMA stuff, which can then be done with variations. I can do this reasonably well in a controlled demo situation. One of the training methods I use/teach is to do it on the training partner (protected if necessary) when you’re standing in a narrow parallel stance, using both hands and already touching. First as a push, then with the short-energy juice. That ensures that you’re doing it fairly cleanly, otherwise you fall forwards or backwards when executing, and it also rules out the “rotation around the central axis” observed here by Dr. Fish. A rotation can be added for extra power and of course will tend to come naturally when you’re doing it faster with only one hand, but rotation shouldn’t be part of the basic power generation.

My first seriously skilled teacher (in Malaysia) had a nice party-trick version where the recipient folded his arms across his torso and the teacher (working from a bow stance) placed just his two index fingers on the folded arms and then discharged. The (felt) result was pretty impressive/unpleasant.

Actually I would agree with Strange here.
Strange wrote:how you can move to set-up your opponent like he was standing still is the real kung fu
not this one


For me at least, practicing it under controlled conditions is one thing but creating and landing the same technique on a competent and relatively uncooperative person who is moving around and trying to get you at the same time (=sparring and upwards) is – surprise – much more difficult. In other words, combining it with your defence and delivery system.

Plus, as a minor point, the danger of suddenly getting it right but not well-dosed in a more chaotic training situation and then actually hurting your partner. But I’m not using the old cop-out: “Oh sure I could, but I don’t because it’s too dangerous”. ::) I really find it much harder to do with a defending and attacking partner.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:39 pm

Wear boxing gloves and a headguard or even chest protectors if need be. It's quite doable. What's the point of training any of this if not to use it in sparring?
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:55 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Wear boxing gloves and a headguard or even chest protectors if need be. It's quite doable. What's the point of training any of this if not to use it in sparring?

Agree! Any skill that can not be applied in fighting is useless skill. You don't have to wait until you are 80 years old to find this out. The earlier that you can test yourself, the more chance you can improve it for the rest of your life.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Trick on Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:14 am

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Wear boxing gloves and a headguard or even chest protectors if need be. It's quite doable. What's the point of training any of this if not to use it in sparring?

Any skill that can not be applied in fighting is useless skill. You don't have to wait until you are 80 years old to find this out. The earlier that you can test yourself, the more chance you can improve it for the rest of your life.

there are ways. the skills of avoiding fights, could prove to be quite useful, practice makes perfect http://www.amog.com/ways-avoid-fight/
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Giles on Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:25 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Wear boxing gloves and a headguard or even chest protectors if need be. It's quite doable. What's the point of training any of this if not to use it in sparring?


Sure. My main point there is that in more uncooperative sparring it's much harder to deliver a strike with the juice inside, as thematized in this thread, instead of the more 'normal' variants. Not impossible, but harder. My goal is to open up the opponent to land the strike with good energy, preferably without exposing myself at the same time. This as opposed to 'trading shots', where I often find myself firing off more shots but often getting through less often and when I do, with less juice in it.
So I need to train it more in this context, of course... :)
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:29 am

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Wear boxing gloves and a headguard or even chest protectors if need be. It's quite doable. What's the point of training any of this if not to use it in sparring?

Agree! Any skill that can not be applied in fighting is useless skill. You don't have to wait until you are 80 years old to find this out. The earlier that you can test yourself, the more chance you can improve it for the rest of your life.

Also, one can watch experienced IMA or MMA fights, break them down and see what worked (and what didn't) in those fights.

Why is it that teams from Chen Village choose to use sanda biomechanics instead of "relying on internal power?" Some of the fighters have decades of tai chi training from a reliable source.

marvin8 wrote:
Michael wrote:https://thefilmstage.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/600full-crouching-tiger-hidden-dragon-photo2.jpg

If a woman wants to fight, she should do it the RSF way and rely on internal power.

I should add Zhang Weili is fighting the way (e.g., shenfa, etc.) these taiji guys are fighting.

Wushu Longhuquan
Published on Mar 15, 2017

Han Feilong (Wang Zhanjun school Chenjiagou Village):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND0BBW3uido

Metteyya4461
Published on Oct 8, 2013

Chinese Chen's Taijiquan player Wang Yan and Thai player Vera Chakhan Wow. On September 28, 2013, the highly anticipated "Chen-style Taijiquan against Thailand Muay Thai Contest" kicked off at the Jiaozuo Gymnasium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0RqOGqMNvI

Wushu Longhuquan
Published on Mar 6, 2017

TaiChi School of Master Wang Zhanjun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JzKuoDeWnE

marvin8 wrote:Excerpts from "An interview with Wang Yan, head coach of the Chenjiagou Taijiquan School," https://chentaijisi.wordpress.com/2018/ ... an-school/
vladostaric on March 7, 2018 wrote:From the very beginning Master Chen Ziqiang was my main teacher. At that time, he was not travelling abroad so much, so I was trained by him consistently and regularly. There were also other coaches besides him at the school, helping me with different aspects of the training. I was taught, for example, some external martial arts as well, particularly sanda and shaolin kungfu. . . .

Image
Wang Yan training with his master Chen Ziqiang in 2016 (photo: personal archive of Wang Yan)

Other types of training, on the contrary, were quite demanding: we did a lot of weight lifting, stretching, also other strength excercises to develop fitness and muscular abilities. When a student grows a little older, reaching his late teens and early twenties, then the school starts putting much more attention to learning taolu (forms).

Could you share some memories from competitions?

. . . During the Henan Jimiao Sai competition in 2010 (or maybe the year before?) I was one point away from losing. Then, somehow, I managed to turn it around and in the end beat the opponent by fifteen points. This competition was a particularly memorable experience for me.

Image
Wang Yan winning Chenjiagou competition in 2014 (photo: personal archive of Wang Yan)

Image
Wang Yan in combat training in 2016 (photo: personal archive of Wang Yan)

marvin8 wrote:"Q&A with Master Chen Bing:"

moving stillness on 2017-06-01 wrote:Master Chen Bing is a descendant of the Chen family that developed Taijiquan in Chenjiagou. At the age of six he started learning the family art from his uncles Chen Xiaowang and Chen Xiaoxing. . . .

Traces of Bamboo Rice Bowl: How good is Chen Style Taijiquan in combat? Can you guys compete with MMA fighters and win?

Chen Bing: Dear Traces of Bamboo Rice Bowl, Chen Taiji is fairly well known for its combat applications. Whether it could overtake MMA fighters depends on the game rules. Under MMA rules, taijiquan no doubt has a bigger chance of losing; under taiji sparring rules, MMA could also have an advantage of “fighting the long with the short”. Losing is not a big deal, one can always reflect and refine [their skills]. Throughout history which martial art has not lost once?

New Beginning: Taijiquan, dare to take on a supermatch with Sanda?

Chen Bing: Greetings New Beginning! Are you just curious, or do you have some particularly fascinating ideas? Sanda originated from traditional wushu but exceeds folk martial arts in many aspects including training methods, intensity, practical combat applications, body recovery, nutrition, as well as selection of athletes. Though related, there are many differences [between taijiquan and sanda]. Why not learn from each other and improve together? I think that would be more pragmatic and important than calling dares.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:15 am

marvin8 wrote:Also, one can watch experienced IMA or MMA fights, break them down and see what worked (and what didn't) in those fights.

Why is it that teams from Chen Village choose to use sanda biomechanics instead of "relying on internal power?" Some of the fighters have decades of tai chi training from a reliable source.

Please use the clip of Wang Yan to point out where Wang Yan is using sanda biomechanics rather taijiquan body mechanics. I don't see anything in that clip that is not from taiji. Which strikes and kicks of Wang's are not from taijiquan? His right cross is not a western style right cross, it uses taiji body mechanics. There is something that is not traditional taijiquan which I suspect Wang Yan picked up from his sanda training and another thing which is a bit modified from the traditional form, but applications often vary a bit from the form anyway and neither of those things make what he is doing external.

Metteyya4461
Published on Oct 8, 2013

Chinese Chen's Taijiquan player Wang Yan and Thai player Vera Chakhan Wow. On September 28, 2013, the highly anticipated "Chen-style Taijiquan against Thailand Muay Thai Contest" kicked off at the Jiaozuo Gymnasium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0RqOGqMNvI
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Internal punch

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:26 am

At what point is it still tai chi
51% tai chi 49%mma
99% mms 1% tai chi
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:04 pm

robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Also, one can watch experienced IMA or MMA fights, break them down and see what worked (and what didn't) in those fights.

Why is it that teams from Chen Village choose to use sanda biomechanics instead of "relying on internal power?" Some of the fighters have decades of tai chi training from a reliable source.

Please use the clip of Wang Yan to point out where Wang Yan is using sanda biomechanics rather taijiquan body mechanics. I don't see anything in that clip that is not from taiji. Which strikes and kicks of Wang's are not from taijiquan? His right cross is not a western style right cross, it uses taiji body mechanics. There is something that is not traditional taijiquan which I suspect Wang Yan picked up from his sanda training and another thing which is a bit modified from the traditional form, but applications often vary a bit from the form anyway and neither of those things make what he is doing external.

Metteyya4461
Published on Oct 8, 2013

Chinese Chen's Taijiquan player Wang Yan and Thai player Vera Chakhan Wow. On September 28, 2013, the highly anticipated "Chen-style Taijiquan against Thailand Muay Thai Contest" kicked off at the Jiaozuo Gymnasium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0RqOGqMNvI

Thanks. I should have added, "Or, are these fighters using tai chi biomechanics and/or internal power?" I was just wondering what others see in these tai chi fighting videos.

If one says "Tai chi is formless it's not about techniques," then I can't say they are not doing taiji. However Wang Yan himself says, "I was taught, for example, some external martial arts as well, particularly sanda and shaolin kungfu. . . ."
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Re: Internal punch

Postby everything on Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:38 pm

It looks like:
1. a larger heavier guy takes on a smaller lighter guy.
2. the smaller lighter guy doesn't really appear to be doing anything for whatever reason.
3. there are some punches, kicks, and twists/trips.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:40 pm

marvin8 wrote:Thanks. I should have added, "Or, are these fighters using tai chi biomechanics and/or internal power?" I was just wondering what others see in these tai chi fighting videos.

If one says "Tai chi is formless it's not about techniques," then I can't say they are not doing taiji. However Wang Yan himself says, "I was taught, for example, some external martial arts as well, particularly sanda and shaolin kungfu. . . ."

Yes, but I don't know why. From what I've read it seems like he participated in wushu competitions. I don't know much about the Chinese wushu competitions, but I know they have forms, push hands, and sanda. If you want to fight sanda is the ruleset/format that is used. Originally sanda was developed so the various TCMAs could compete. If you want to win you'll certainly train in sanda, but if you have already trained the various techniques that are used why would you change the body mechanics you have already trained? People who train in CIMAs likely know how to do a cross, jab, upper cut, and hook internally. What you need to do is train to the ruleset/format. In the forms competition there are required forms such as long fist and as a team member he may have needed to do some forms besides taiji.

At advanced stages I think taijiquan is formless, but that doesn't mean that various types of punches, kicks, throws, and locks aren't trained and can't be identified. Forms are used to train. 8-)

[Edit]FWIW Connor McGregor trained in boxing before he fought Mayweather. Only makes sense to me - train to the ruleset/format of the fight.
https://www.bardown.com/conor-mcgregor- ... h-1.677664
Last edited by robert on Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:02 pm

Formless? Bollocks. No such thing.

Great Sanda bouts. I saw zero Taijiquan. Perhaps he was better rooted and there may have been some Taiji throws, but techniques-wise there was nothing. All of those hand moves in the form? Throw them out and box! TCMA look nothing like boxing. I did Sanda for several years and did Taijiquan for several years, both full-time. They couldn't be more different. Mind you, I have nothing against Sanda at all. I do have something against people passing off one thing as another.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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