Internal punch

[johnwang]

The only way someone will understand it is if they find a good teacher and spend years training.

Where are those teachers who can use their internal punch in fighting? If back in 1928 China national Kung Fu tournament, there were no internal guys who could use internal punch in fighting, what make you think that 91 years later, you can find such teacher exist?

[MaartenSFS]

Talking sense is not the same thing as trolling...

Is it a form of battery that is strapped onto the moving delivery mechanism (eg arm or other bows) or is this some form of electrical like impulse?

You think that is a sensible question?

He was being sarcastic because some of the people on this thread seem to believe in magic and unicorns over reality...

[dspyrido]

Talking sense is not the same thing as trolling...

Is it a form of battery that is strapped onto the moving delivery mechanism (eg arm or other bows) or is this some form of electrical like impulse?

You think that is a sensible question?

He was being sarcastic because some of the people on this thread seem to believe in magic and unicorns over reality...

Thanks MaartenSFS - it's kind of complicated. I don't believe in the chi magic bullet because I have never met anyone who can hurt me without any physical movement. That said the battery idea is as you said - there are people who believe it. Although it sounds sarcastic it actually was an open question because there are people here on RSF & other sites who do believe in the human magic juice, ethereal chi, electrical power generators or other mysterious forces. Sure I don't believe it but I am happy to have anyone provide evidence for why they feel this is real. The question was simply there to get the context of where robert is coming from.

[windwalker]

https://www.toutiao.com/i6759906847324389896/


https://www.toutiao.com/i6761027616305578504/

"google translate"

胯 and ridge, one main "horizontal", one main "shun", and the union is "spiral", called "the strength of the dragon and the tiger." The "ridge" consists of a plurality of vertebrae, which is used to support the body's support. Since the human body walks upright, the spine has an "S" shape. When the force is strong, the spine needs to be adjusted to an "arc" shape to conform to the state of the force.

Therefore, it is required to “with chest and back, shoulders and elbows”, or to use a word to describe it as “wrapping”. At the same time, there is a great relationship between the internal organs and the spine. The internal organs are like grapes, the spine is like “vine”, and the internal organs are attached to the spine.

The spine and the two arms and legs together called "five bows", "five bows", can be called the overall strength, plus the visceral ups and downs, called the human spring is not too much, the boxing 曰 "vibration ", the tremor can make the sun and the moon dull!" How should I practice? “Pole and round” is naturally stable and stable. However, the fighting is changing rapidly, and the "solid" is not enough. The gun is powerful, but the other is a car, and it will be twisted and twisted, and I will have the skill to chase the enemy. Ever since, it is necessary to slap "moving" or "sturdy" to determine the mission of the shackles.

In CMA / IMA , there are very distinct differences in what, how and type of power that can be developed with the body/mind, that is thought to set it apart from its western counterparts...

The many demos attempting to show this, they are demos...interesting in themselves
They can only show different reactions to, and the types of training thought to develop
the type of body/mind that will and can use whats developed.

Certain styles or methods of training are known for specializing with different methods...
All CMA is internal,,,this is no way that it can not be if its
to be acknowledged as CMA.



How its used and skill of use is another matter.....

[robert]

The question was simply there to get the context of where robert is coming from.

Going back to the OP the title is Re: Internal punch. For the most part I agree with Charles' (since deleted) and Kenneth Fish's responses both of which seem reasonable to me.

[dspyrido]

The question was simply there to get the context of where robert is coming from.

Going back to the OP the title is Re: Internal punch. For the most part I agree with Charles' (since deleted) and Kenneth Fish's responses both of which seem reasonable to me.

Yes but as soon as you mention mysterious force + hua jin and then explain it as body mechanics of mysterious jin + small circles then you are mixing your genres. On top of that the real question is can you deliver this capability yourself or are just referring to the texts?

Since you mention biomechanics I will highlight what was posted by Marteen, Bhassler & a few others to earlier on here around "internal punch".

What it's not is hoppity stuff from a "master" doing a hip shake which has people bouncing around like they have been zapped. If this exists then I am happy for anyone to claim it and show it.

It's also not these domino demonstrations. They are in the same realms of a magicians trick. With the first guy feeling the effect and then just falling into it & the others just play along.

Internal punches- this I am cross posting from some what I said on another thread here:

The part that I liked was the ground reaction force. IMO now we are getting somewhere that starts to go into the realms of internal and how it manages impact & uses it.

Again - just IMO but "internally" trained structure does not just get it's unique power by pushing off from the ground. It does this along with the coordinated use of the bows & then get's it from being able to take the reaction force into the body but due to the lack of blockages (tension) & the use of bone structure it will pass the impact into the ground which .... also reacts & passes the impact back up ... into the person being hit. This is just a view as I have not seen any studies that have assessed this.

Getting this right means punches can be delivered from hardly any stance (parallel leg even) that can strike out at a short or long distance and mess up someone. This opens up ability to drop the body weight down and strike up at the same time or to step left while striking right or adapt a strike on contact but still have knock out power. This is not a skill normally seem with strikers unless they are really relaxed yet coordinated.

This has been highlighted earlier as the weight drop + the bows used in combination (shocking force). The dropping of the entire bodyweight from a short distance creates an action reaction force that bounces back & forth in a short distance. Extra rotation, hip shifts, double hits etc. are just add-ons.

The weight drop is the power generator. Not the DT/Kua.

This is a punch I can demonstrate, use in sparring/tournaments (with mma gloves) that I think is unique to IMA. Most other IMA examples rely on the offbalancing + pushing mechanism.

There is another that I have felt that I can only describe as internal but since I can't replicate it to the same degree I am only guessing at how it works making it too difficult to post up.

Do other "internal" strikes exist? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that jazz but the odds are if others exist then they are so hidden from real use and public awareness that they may as well being considered as not existing.

[dspyrido]

The only way someone will understand it is if they find a good teacher and spend years training.

Where are those teachers who can use their internal punch in fighting? If back in 1928 China national Kung Fu tournament, there were no internal guys who could use internal punch in fighting, what make you think that 91 years later, you can find such teacher exist?

Agreed but let's take this a step further. Why post bizarre videos or use quotes as reference points from philosophical texts as evidence?

Let's make it simple and clear.

For anyone here - what can YOU do? Why is it an INTERAL vs. EXTERNAL punch? Can YOU demonstrate it? Can YOU use it or not?

(not targeted at you JW - you post what you do).

[robert]

Yes but as soon as you mention mysterious force + hua jin and then explain it as body mechanics of mysterious jin + small circles then you are mixing your genres.

Jin is often translated as strength. Neijin can be translated as internal strength - some people call it relaxed strength or length strength. Body mechanics are applicable to jin. I think jin is best described through body mechanics. It is said "It is rooted in the feet. issues through the
legs. is governed by the waist. and is expressed through the fingers." Fu Zhongwen discusses jin talking about pushing a shopping cart. You are the one who mentioned hidden. I just pointed out that there are different levels of strength - obvious, hidden, and mysterious. These refer to skill levels. At the obvious level how one moves is obvious, at the hidden level it's not that you can't see it, but it's not obvious. When it's mysterious you don't really see it, but if you understand the body mechanics you'll still understand what's going on.

On top of that the real question is can you deliver this capability yourself or are just referring to the texts?

I do Chen style and go to workshops. I've met a number of people on closed forums over the years. I'm an old guy so I'm not fighting. I can demonstrate jin in the context of push hands and can demonstrate how to push with jin, how to push or strike a heavy bag with jin and so on. If a person can strike a bag with jin it's easy to see that it's applicable to a number of fighting formats. I don't know why people who don't do CIMAs make a big deal about it.

[Bhassler]

This has been highlighted earlier as the weight drop + the bows used in combination (shocking force). The dropping of the entire bodyweight from a short distance creates an action reaction force that bounces back & forth in a short distance. Extra rotation, hip shifts, double hits etc. are just add-ons.

The weight drop is the power generator. Not the DT/Kua.

This is a punch I can demonstrate, use in sparring/tournaments (with mma gloves) that I think is unique to IMA. Most other IMA examples rely on the offbalancing + pushing mechanism.

For the record, I don't think this is unique to IMA-- I've seen other folks do it, including dudes who just liked to or had to fight and figured some stuff out.

Where this gets more fun is when you start playing with the mechanics and seeing of you can apply them laterally to the orientation of your shoulders, or to pull, lift, or sink, etc. It starts to highlight what needs to be strong, or relaxed, or mobile, or whatever, and makes a lot of sense if this kind of power is something that's inherent in your art. If it's not already built in, it's likely still a fun party trick, but at the end of the day maybe not a good use of time.

[MaartenSFS]

Thanks MaartenSFS - it's kind of complicated. I don't believe in the chi magic bullet because I have never met anyone who can hurt me without any physical movement. That said the battery idea is as you said - there are people who believe it. Although it sounds sarcastic it actually was an open question because there are people here on RSF & other sites who do believe in the human magic juice, ethereal chi, electrical power generators or other mysterious forces. Sure I don't believe it but I am happy to have anyone provide evidence for why they feel this is real. The question was simply there to get the context of where robert is coming from.

I think that, like me, you've been around China (and elsewhere) and met a fair number of masters. I've met plenty of masters that claimed this or that and was left unimpressed. Sometimes, though, they'd be so fucking badarse that I would be humbled. In all cases those were the ones that trained hard and crafted their bodies into weapons. They trained the basics over and over. There was no bullshit. The were willing to fight all comers.

As far as internal power is concerned I agree with you that there were two basic types the explosive Fajin kind and the almost magic-like unbalancing. I have trained with both. There is a third type, though. The subtle Fajin-type. My Master can do all three, but the best example of the third that I have seen is Zhang Binghai, a Henan Xinyiliuhequan master. He would do his footwork and God help you if you stood in the way. Like a raging bull running into you. Incredible!

[marvin8]

On top of that the real question is can you deliver this capability yourself or are just referring to the texts?

... I can demonstrate jin in the context of push hands and can demonstrate how to push with jin, how to push or strike a heavy bag with jin and so on. If a person can strike a bag with jin it's easy to see that it's applicable to a number of fighting formats. I don't know why people who don't do CIMAs make a big deal about it.

Here are clips from the Wang Yan (head coach of Chenjiagou, one of the “nine tigers” – the best nine students of Chen ZiQiang) figthting video.

Are these internal punches using internal power generation? If so, they look the same as sanda. If not, why not use internal punches (e.g., slower, distance, etc.)?

[LaoDan]

Here is a movie version of Lee’s no windup punch (1” or 3” punch mechanics) which he does from contact and from distance:


By the way, like any power expression, this mechanism should be able to be used at a reduced level of force if desired. It is just that demonstrating that one can deliver great power without a windup (and from a short distance) requires one to actually show that power, so in demonstrations full power fajin is used. But in friendly sparring, I see no reason why ½ power, for example, could not be used instead.

[marvin8]

Here is a movie version of Lee’s no windup punch (1” or 3” punch mechanics) which he does from contact and from distance:


By the way, like any power expression, this mechanism should be able to be used at a reduced level of force if desired. It is just that demonstrating that one can deliver great power without a windup (and from a short distance) requires one to actually show that power, so in demonstrations full power fajin is used. But in friendly sparring, I see no reason why ½ power, for example, could not be used instead.

Not sure your point. Bruce's backhand started from more than a foot away (falling step?). Bruce's backhand is not considered "fajin," internal power (per Nima King, etc.). External fighters do "no windup" punches too.

[Bhassler]

That is a thing of beauty (if you ignore the brain damage to the recipient). Thanks!

[LaoDan]

MarvinB,

My point is that the power generation does not need to be used at full power, or from only 1” or 3”, and can be used in from contact situations like is often practiced in TJQ.

My point is also that it is a practical technique that could be frequently used, in contrast to this:

For me at least, practicing it under controlled conditions is one thing but creating and landing the same technique on a competent and relatively uncooperative person who is moving around and trying to get you at the same time (=sparring and upwards) is – surprise – much more difficult. In other words, combining it with your defence and delivery system.

Plus, as a minor point, the danger of suddenly getting it right but not well-dosed in a more chaotic training situation and then actually hurting your partner. But I’m not using the old cop-out: “Oh sure I could, but I don’t because it’s too dangerous”. I really find it much harder to do with a defending and attacking partner.

Thanks for your video example. Love it! For me that is not very different from an “internal” practitioner using the dynamics (of 1” or 3” power generation) from non-contact. Since the styles that I practice often strike from contact, it would be closer to Lee’s example and is why I posted him, but yours works just fine as an example as well. Power is power, whether delivered by someone that is “internal” or “external”.