Internal punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:50 am

marvin8 wrote:Are these internal punches using internal power generation? If so, they look the same as sanda. If not, why not use internal punches (e.g., slower, distance, etc.)?
Image

Those look external to me.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Internal punch

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:32 pm

robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Are these internal punches using internal power generation? If so, they look the same as sanda. If not, why not use internal punches (e.g., slower, distance, etc.)?
Image

Those look external to me.


"looks" :P Others post movie clips, some choose to ignore clips of "demos" or "theories posted that explains what those doing the demos feel they
are demoing.

All the while ignoring results which are really what is being questioned. Why are there no results shown in sparring or in combative competitions
similar to what is shown in the demos or espoused by the theory.

If the reactions are not the same, it would follow they are not using the same methods or the methods themselves do not lend themselves well to
what is seen in the combative events or as some may feel its just hype.....considering this site is supposed to be dedicated to internal arts seems odd :-\

It could also be said that todate no CMA artist showing clear usage of what is practiced as of yet has been shown....While on the other hand many other arts, Boxing, judo, BJJ ect don't seem to have this problem....

This was not the case in the past

Image

Grandmaster Ku Yu Cheung, Iron palm master
“As the story goes, a Russian circus strongman had a wild Siberian horse (probably a “prezywlaski” breed) that was trained to fight, and the man was challenging all comers to accept the match between anyone who could “tame”, or beat the horse. There was a reward, of course, but that was not Master Ku’s motivation, however. The reason he accepted the challenge was because other masters and their students were being beat up by the horse quite badly, acquiring some serious injuries. Ku wanted to end the shame of his colleagues, so he accepted the challenge himself.

When Ku got into the ring with the horse, he got kicked several times, but he received no injuries at all, due to his internal iron body skill (gold bell, i.e. iron shirt). Ku then managed to slap the horse with one palm slap. The horse gave out a loud whinny and dropped dead with blood coming out of the eyes, ears, nose, and mouth and died instantly. An autopsy was performed and they found out that the horse had died of internal massive bleeding, due to ruptured blood vessels and organs, yet there was no sign or external mark of any injury on the outside of the horse’s body.”

In Tibetan white crane they have a speciality hand called burning palm
getting hit with it tends to numb any part of the body contacted by it......

Yep, a long time ago used this in sparring, worked as advertised.
The testing of it is done by using phone books, the ability to leave a hand print through the phone book placed on someone's body "chest"
was one indication that one had achieved some skill in it. Was able to do this at one time...like many skill sets one has to practice to keep and maintain
it :P
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:18 pm

Grandmaster Ku Yu Cheung, Iron palm master
“As the story goes, a Russian circus strongman had a wild Siberian horse (probably a “prezywlaski” breed) that was trained to fight, and the man was challenging all comers to accept the match between anyone who could “tame”, or beat the horse. There was a reward, of course, but that was not Master Ku’s motivation, however. The reason he accepted the challenge was because other masters and their students were being beat up by the horse quite badly, acquiring some serious injuries. Ku wanted to end the shame of his colleagues, so he accepted the challenge himself.

When Ku got into the ring with the horse, he got kicked several times, but he received no injuries at all, due to his internal iron body skill (gold bell, i.e. iron shirt). Ku then managed to slap the horse with one palm slap. The horse gave out a loud whinny and dropped dead with blood coming out of the eyes, ears, nose, and mouth and died instantly. An autopsy was performed and they found out that the horse had died of internal massive bleeding, due to ruptured blood vessels and organs, yet there was no sign or external mark of any injury on the outside of the horse’s body.”


Gu Ruzhang, he studied Yang TCC with Li Jinglin and XYQ with Sun Lutang. He also wrote a book on Taijiquan:

”The key to the art is softness. Within its softness lies its strength. When practicing the solo set, slowly is best.
... It should be a continuous flow from beginning to end, connected and unbroken, adhering together without interruption.
We constantly observe external stylists trying so hard in all their jumping and shouting. Such training only ingrains a habit of excessive effort. The art of Taiji Boxing does the opposite. To emphasize anger makes one stiff, and to emphasize effort makes one clumsy. How could we talk of nimbleness in such cases? When practicing the solo set, it should be completely natural and not have the least bit of strenuous effort.”

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... u-ruzhang/
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:12 pm

Good luck with that in any fight where strikes are allowed.. One can be very relaxed whilst still using explosive power. It is training to be able to relax or add tension at will that is the highest achievement. There is no Yin without Yang...
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Re: Internal punch

Postby dspyrido on Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:10 pm

Bhassler wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Image


That is a thing of beauty (if you ignore the brain damage to the recipient). Thanks!


XY 101 & a nice example of the Six Harmonies. Internal? Not what I was describing but on the journey to do this stuff I had to learn this as a basic so it's probably the right place to start.

And as seen in the clip can be used in sports fights. Even good to just slam a guard as a setup for a follow on hit.

robert wrote:I do Chen style and go to workshops. I've met a number of people on closed forums over the years. I'm an old guy so I'm not fighting. I can demonstrate jin in the context of push hands and can demonstrate how to push with jin, how to push or strike a heavy bag with jin and so on. If a person can strike a bag with jin it's easy to see that it's applicable to a number of fighting formats. I don't know why people who don't do CIMAs make a big deal about it. :-\


Relaxed striking is not a big deal. The problem is the claims made that "internal" striking is somehow superior that annoys people who don't do CIMA. Is this an internal punch?



vs.



You can elect to see more use of DT/kua/jin but it's still similar mechanics except one guy uses his legs to position better. And he recognises the importance of cardio without a need to stick making his method more useful when range is maintained.

Bhassler wrote:For the record, I don't think this is unique to IMA-- I've seen other folks do it, including dudes who just liked to or had to fight and figured some stuff out.

Where this gets more fun is when you start playing with the mechanics and seeing of you can apply them laterally to the orientation of your shoulders, or to pull, lift, or sink, etc. It starts to highlight what needs to be strong, or relaxed, or mobile, or whatever, and makes a lot of sense if this kind of power is something that's inherent in your art. If it's not already built in, it's likely still a fun party trick, but at the end of the day maybe not a good use of time.


I've tried this with some amateur boxers I know. I won't say their is a patent on this in IMA but they don't seem to be able to do it. Doesn't mean they can't train to get it or that no one else doesn't know it. Just saying IME it's not really floating around the boxing scene. Most likely is because what I described is not as much use with 12oz+ gloves - too much dampening. 4oz though seems interesting and this method helps in infighting especially when a grip is available.

windwalker wrote:Grandmaster Ku Yu Cheung, Iron palm master


So doctored. Where is the video of him doing what is in the picture?



I don't doubt iron palm skills can hurt but some of these stories just go too far.

And when people talk about telephone books & leaving hand prints - then why can't these masters step into a ring and leave hand prints on the opponents faces? Maybe they can kill a horse that is tied down but they really need better guidance systems.

MaartenSFS wrote:As far as internal power is concerned I agree with you that there were two basic types the explosive Fajin kind and the almost magic-like unbalancing. I have trained with both. There is a third type, though. The subtle Fajin-type. My Master can do all three, but the best example of the third that I have seen is Zhang Binghai, a Henan Xinyiliuhequan master. He would do his footwork and God help you if you stood in the way. Like a raging bull running into you. Incredible!


My 3rd one was where I felt I had been hit with a metal pole except it landed deep inside me.The strike came from absolutely zero pull back. It left no mark but I felt the impact for days. It was done by my XYLH sifu on my request & was one of my favourite lessons from him.

Deep down I just think of internal strikes as things that are more .... internal (ie really hard to see where the impact came from or how the power was generated).
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Re: Internal punch

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:39 pm

And when people talk about telephone books & leaving hand prints - then why can't these masters step into a ring and leave hand prints on the opponents faces? Maybe they can kill a horse that is tied down but they really need better guidance systems.


Some have...

It was James Lee’s MODERN KUNG-FU KARATE, Iron, Poison Hand training. It was James and Al’s study of this phenomena that inspired Bruce Lee to develop his techniques for short-distance penetration punching.

He was also one of the first Americans to explore and master the art of “Iron Palm” training. He was featured in one of the first martial arts advertisements that appeared in Popular Mechanics Magazine back in 1958 when the world had little knowledge of these once secretive fighting arts.



Understandably, Great Grandmaster Al Novak is the only individual that Bruce Lee would not spar with publicly. Because of his enormous power and lightning quick hand speed, anyone that crossed hands with Al in sparring was destined to get steamrolled before they could react or even block his awesome punching barrages.

It was he and his Sifu, James Lee, that developed the shortest distance principle for executing highly focused punches at the closest possible ranges. This, they could do with board and brick breaking techniques at a mere distance of only two or three inches. It took considerable “compressed” force to accomplish a feat of this nature.


Image

https://www.usadojo.com/al-novak/

Novak also began studying with T. Y. Wong in the Sil Lum Fut Gar (少林佛家a.k.a. Shaolin Buddha Clan). "We used to have a school in San Francisco, 142 Waverly Place. That's where I started with the Sil Lum system, where I took Fut Gar with Jimmy Lee. We used to go down in the basement and train. It was 1958 when I met Jimmy Lee and I started brick breaking." Novak first saw Lee's brick breaking demonstration at one of Grandmaster Wally Jay's martial arts luaus. Jay, the founder of Small Circle Jujitsu, had asked Novak to be a bouncer at his gathering.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/ ... rticle=871
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:12 pm


windwalker wrote:Grandmaster Ku Yu Cheung, Iron palm master


So doctored. Where is the video of him doing what is in the picture?



I don't doubt iron palm skills can hurt but some of these stories just go too far.


There’s no video of Ku Yu Cheung / Gu Ruzhang preserved.

The pictures is of him, But the video part in the youtube clip is Lee Yingarn. From this instruction video:



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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:03 pm

dspyrido wrote:
Bhassler wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Image


That is a thing of beauty (if you ignore the brain damage to the recipient). Thanks!


XY 101 & a nice example of the Six Harmonies. Internal? Not what I was describing but on the journey to do this stuff I had to learn this as a basic so it's probably the right place to start.

And as seen in the clip can be used in sports fights. Even good to just slam a guard as a setup for a follow on hit.

Some similar mechanics. When looking at actual IMA sparring/fighting, even closer. Different punches, different ways to generate power. Boxing doesn't claim always land foot and hand at the same time or falling step jab is the most powerful punch.

If you can punch opponent's face, why "slam a guard?" Punch first. If obstruction is in the way, then trap or trap after the hit. Observe those IMAists that lost. Where are their hands? Mostly flailing in the air trying to bridge/trap, away from their face. In the "Falling Step" clip, the punch lands before opponent's front foot lands. Punch on the half beat.

dspyrido wrote:
robert wrote:I do Chen style and go to workshops. I've met a number of people on closed forums over the years. I'm an old guy so I'm not fighting. I can demonstrate jin in the context of push hands and can demonstrate how to push with jin, how to push or strike a heavy bag with jin and so on. If a person can strike a bag with jin it's easy to see that it's applicable to a number of fighting formats. I don't know why people who don't do CIMAs make a big deal about it. :-\


Relaxed striking is not a big deal. The problem is the claims made that "internal" striking is somehow superior that annoys people who don't do CIMA. Is this an internal punch?


The problem is, If "internal striking is superior" why are Chen Village fighters using external striking biomechanics in actual fights? Why not use the superior striking biomechanics practiced in the forms?

dspyrido wrote:
Bhassler wrote:Where this gets more fun is when you start playing with the mechanics and seeing of you can apply them laterally to the orientation of your shoulders, or to pull, lift, or sink, etc. It starts to highlight what needs to be strong, or relaxed, or mobile, or whatever, and makes a lot of sense if this kind of power is something that's inherent in your art. If it's not already built in, it's likely still a fun party trick, but at the end of the day maybe not a good use of time.


I've tried this with some amateur boxers I know. I won't say their is a patent on this in IMA but they don't seem to be able to do it. Doesn't mean they can't train to get it or that no one else doesn't know it. Just saying IME it's not really floating around the boxing scene. Most likely is because what I described is not as much use with 12oz+ gloves - too much dampening. 4oz though seems interesting and this method helps in infighting especially when a grip is available.

May not be what you're talking about. However, boxers are taught to sit on their punches and use ground reaction force. External fighters have kua, waist and joints too in which flexibility, range of motion and relaxation are addressed.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:48 am

MaartenSFS wrote: It is training to be able to relax or add tension at will that is the highest achievement. There is no Yin without Yang...

To be able to throw invisible strikes intended tension must be abandoned, only true relaxation can make it possible. Upon impact no excessive and conscious tension needed since the target is caught off guard.
About concern of yin and yang within oneself, is of course not to be of concern if to succeed in a combat situation
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:08 am

Trick wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote: It is training to be able to relax or add tension at will that is the highest achievement. There is no Yin without Yang...

To be able to throw invisible strikes intended tension must be abandoned, only true relaxation can make it possible. Upon impact no excessive and conscious tension needed since the target is caught off guard.
About concern of yin and yang within oneself, is of course not to be of concern if to succeed in a combat situation

I disagree. One must introduce tension, however briefly, to initiate the strike. That compression.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Bao on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:10 am

Trick wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote: It is training to be able to relax or add tension at will that is the highest achievement. There is no Yin without Yang...

To be able to throw invisible strikes intended tension must be abandoned, only true relaxation can make it possible. Upon impact no excessive and conscious tension needed since the target is caught off guard.


Agreed. If you have the intent to tense up, you won't be able to relax properly. On impact alignment is important, but there's no need to tense up.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:57 am

Not tension upon impact. Compression to initiate the strike. Before and after that brief moment one should be relaxed and structure will handle the rest. It is like a spear. If the spear were limp would it penetrate? Would a limp sword? Swords designed primarily for thrusting are very stiff. Using our supple human bodies we can change this at will or even exhibit characteristics of both. That is why we train the tendons more than muscles.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:28 am

windwalker wrote:Image

Grandmaster Ku Yu Cheung, Iron palm master
“As the story goes, a Russian circus strongman had a wild Siberian horse (probably a “prezywlaski” breed) that was trained to fight, and the man was challenging all comers to accept the match between anyone who could “tame”, or beat the horse. There was a reward, of course, but that was not Master Ku’s motivation, however. The reason he accepted the challenge was because other masters and their students were being beat up by the horse quite badly, acquiring some serious injuries. Ku wanted to end the shame of his colleagues, so he accepted the challenge himself.

When Ku got into the ring with the horse, he got kicked several times, but he received no injuries at all, due to his internal iron body skill (gold bell, i.e. iron shirt). Ku then managed to slap the horse with one palm slap. The horse gave out a loud whinny and dropped dead with blood coming out of the eyes, ears, nose, and mouth and died instantly. An autopsy was performed and they found out that the horse had died of internal massive bleeding, due to ruptured blood vessels and organs, yet there was no sign or external mark of any injury on the outside of the horse’s body.”

ha! according to gogen yamaguchi the founder of goju-ryu karate's offshot org guju-kai. during his captivity by russians up in manchuria he had to participate in a spectacle that the russians found entertaining, they let their captives down a deep pit to fight siberian tigers. according to yamaguchi he barehanded killed his tiger opponent.. some say that's how he acquired his nickname 'the cat'...........also, but perhaps not as spectacular but yet worth to be pointed out since it actually was filmed, conan the barbarian once knocked out an camel by just one punch to its head 8-)
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:57 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Not tension upon impact. Compression to initiate the strike. Before and after that brief moment one should be relaxed and structure will handle the rest. It is like a spear. If the spear were limp would it penetrate? Would a limp sword? Swords designed primarily for thrusting are very stiff. Using our supple human bodies we can change this at will or even exhibit characteristics of both. That is why we train the tendons more than muscles.

yes ok, of course muscles are at work when moving, but surely you dont 'willingly tense'/'compress' during fighting/freesparring (striking style) ?.......frail straws of grass has been seen been piercing into sturdy wooden poles after a tornado has passed by. ....do you walk barefoot at home? ever got a straw of hair stuck in the sole of the foot..really uncomfortable(yes im a softie 8-) )..anyway alignment and precision
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Re: Internal punch

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:52 am

Trick wrote:ha! according to gogen yamaguchi the founder of goju-ryu karate's offshot org guju-kai. during his captivity by russians up in manchuria he had to participate in a spectacle that the russians found entertaining, they let their captives down a deep pit to fight siberian tigers. according to yamaguchi he barehanded killed his tiger opponent.. some say that's how he acquired his nickname 'the cat'...........also, but perhaps not as spectacular but yet worth to be pointed out since it actually was filmed, conan the barbarian once knocked out an camel by just one punch to its head 8-)


you left out Mas Oyama, who killed a bull.....
Does anyone here actually think a man can kill a healthy Tiger with his bare hands? :-\
The point of the horse being killed was what killed the horse and how it was killed.

As to why many of the methods are not passed on to outsiders, it follows much of CMA
tradition even to this day.....Most teachers do not pass on their specialities outside
of a select few...


My 3rd one was where I felt I had been hit with a metal pole except it landed deep inside me.The strike came from absolutely zero pull back. It left no mark but I felt the impact for days. It was done by my XYLH sifu on my request & was one of my favourite lessons from him.

Deep down I just think of internal strikes as things that are more .... internal (ie really hard to see where the impact came from or how the power was generated).





The processes, rationale have been consistently out lined by those who can do
what was described. Instead of trying to understand the process for those that need to it seems like most are trying to equate it to either
what they can do or some other type of method other then what is described as the distinction between what has been written about
for what are called internal and external processes.

All CMA are internal by nature. The distinctions can by better thought of as to how this is manifested and trained by different methods



Image

http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane

The force of qi, an integral feature of the burning hand, is one of those things you need to experience in order to really get the idea. You can watch a gongfu master send a student sailing through the air, but there is a part of you that figures it’s either a trick, or there is an explanation that isn’t going to boil down some mysterious, unexplained force. And yet…


As we practice it, White Crane was a predominantly “long arm” style of gongfu that called for a healthy program of forearm training. We all worked diligently a hitting, smacking, and generally abusing our forearms so that they could take the abuse of sparring.

Indeed, I was one of the more fanatical forearm trainers, able to bring tears to the eyes of those working the “three-point-hit” exercises where babies would cry, women would scream, and forearms would turn to mush.
And so it was that during one of Mr. Long’s demonstrations, I lined myself up in a typical attack position, then came barreling in with a punch aimed at Mr. Long’s nose.

At the time, Mr. Long was mostly talking as I was coming in with my punch. He wasn’t paying much attention to me, and as a result, he deflected my punch by “slapping” my forearm away a bit too hard.

The “Burning Hand,” was Mr. Long’s signature technique, and he was quite open about teaching it those who wanted to learn it. It was an “internal” specialty, different from “external” pushing power. More a slap than a hit, Mr. Long would sometimes place a phone book on your shoulder and give it one of those “slaps.”


You could feel two things coming through the phone book. The first was a push (the external component) that would set you back a foot or two. That was to be expected, but it wasn’t anything to worry about. It was the second thing that was nasty… a sharp, stinging sensation that penetrated your shoulder.

This second force seemed to follow the more external, first force. It seemed to lag behind. But the external force was then gone in an instant, while the stinging second force stayed — and grew. “

Mike Staples



Being hit by this tends to numb out any part of the body it connected with
making it unusable.

main points

1. the distinction between external and internal is well documented.
2. all CMA is internal
3. methods used to develop internal aspects and uses vary as to what they act on
and are developed for.
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