Internal punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:10 am

Trick wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Not tension upon impact. Compression to initiate the strike. Before and after that brief moment one should be relaxed and structure will handle the rest. It is like a spear. If the spear were limp would it penetrate? Would a limp sword? Swords designed primarily for thrusting are very stiff. Using our supple human bodies we can change this at will or even exhibit characteristics of both. That is why we train the tendons more than muscles.

yes ok, of course muscles are at work when moving, but surely you dont 'willingly tense'/'compress' during fighting/freesparring (striking style) ?.......frail straws of grass has been seen been piercing into sturdy wooden poles after a tornado has passed by. ....do you walk barefoot at home? ever got a straw of hair stuck in the sole of the foot..really uncomfortable(yes im a softie 8-) )..anyway alignment and precision

Yes, for less than a second to initiate the strike. That is what ignites the engine that eventually produces a strike using shocking power (what this thread was supposed to be about). Several other people on this thread have described this process in their own way and lead me to believe that they have either experienced or can generate this power. For people that literally spend all day discussing these things I get the overwhelming impression that you lot have never felt this type of power, much less generated it on your own...
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:20 am

What Windwalker describes I wouldn't really group in with shocking power, though they can be combined to an extent. Shocking power is mostly linear and swinging power (甩劲) is mostly circular. They require different training methods to produce. I believe the story about the hand print. I have seen this. The horse story may be exaggerated, but the skill is still practical and well worth learning.

Most styles of CMA try to develop a skill untill they become scary good and strike fear into the hearts of their opponents. I question whether most of you have learned anything tangible from a truly skilled master, such is your ignorance on the subject...

That is not to say that these are the only methods in CMA. Perhaps it would be better for us all if you only offered your input when discussing those other methods that you do actually know something about..
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Re: Internal punch

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:24 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Not tension upon impact. Compression to initiate the strike. Before and after that brief moment one should be relaxed and structure will handle the rest. It is like a spear. If the spear were limp would it penetrate? Would a limp sword? Swords designed primarily for thrusting are very stiff. Using our supple human bodies we can change this at will or even exhibit characteristics of both. That is why we train the tendons more than muscles.



. The rope dart or rope javelin (simplified Chinese: 绳镖; traditional Chinese: 繩鏢; pinyin: shéng biāo), also known as Jōhyō in Japanese, is one of the flexible weapons in Chinese martial arts. Other weapons in this family include the meteor hammer, flying claws, Fei Tou flying weight, and chain whip. Although the flexible weapons share similar movements, each weapon has its own specific techniques.


Ever work with one of these or know anybody who was quite proficient with it.

Different methods and thoughts on energy transmission....Was quite surprised upon meeting someone who was
in Beijing. Corrected a lot misconceptions I held about the usefulness of it as a weapon
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:40 am

marvin8 wrote:The problem is, If "internal striking is superior" why are Chen Village fighters using external striking biomechanics in actual fights? Why not use the superior striking biomechanics practiced in the forms?

Personally I don't think internal body mechanics are superior to external body mechanics. Like many things there are trade offs. There is a legend that some poet in the Imperial Court named taijiquan meaning it is the best martial art. I don't believe that any more than I believe that Zhang Sanfeng created taiji. If you look at the writings of the Chen and Yang families when they write about taiji they talk about it in cosmological/philosophical terms. You see things like when still yin and yang combine to form a whole. When in motion, they separate, producing the two forms or Liang Yi.

I don't understand your thought process. If I look at a fight and a boxer has bad form in a couple strikes I don't think that was deliberate, I suspect it was a mistake. :-\
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:01 am

robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:The problem is, If "internal striking is superior" why are Chen Village fighters using external striking biomechanics in actual fights? Why not use the superior striking biomechanics practiced in the forms?

Personally I don't think internal body mechanics are superior to external body mechanics. Like many things there are trade offs. There is a legend that some poet in the Imperial Court named taijiquan meaning it is the best martial art. I don't believe that any more than I believe that Zhang Sanfeng created taiji. If you look at the writings of the Chen and Yang families when they write about taiji they talk about it in cosmological/philosophical terms. You see things like when still yin and yang combine to form a whole. When in motion, they separate, producing the two forms or Liang Yi.

I don't understand your thought process. If I look at a fight and a boxer has bad form in a couple strikes I don't think that was deliberate, I suspect it was a mistake. :-\

I wasn't implying you. I meant Chen Village. Well, can you find and timestamp any moment that Wang Yan uses internal power? I am not saying whether they are doing taiji or not. I just don't see them using the power generation practiced in the forms in their actual fights. But, I may have missed it.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:18 am

dspyrido wrote:Internal punches- this I am cross posting from some what I said on another thread here:

dspyrido wrote:The part that I liked was the ground reaction force. IMO now we are getting somewhere that starts to go into the realms of internal and how it manages impact & uses it.

Again - just IMO but "internally" trained structure does not just get it's unique power by pushing off from the ground. It does this along with the coordinated use of the bows & then get's it from being able to take the reaction force into the body but due to the lack of blockages (tension) & the use of bone structure it will pass the impact into the ground which .... also reacts & passes the impact back up ... into the person being hit. This is just a view as I have not seen any studies that have assessed this.

Getting this right means punches can be delivered from hardly any stance (parallel leg even) that can strike out at a short or long distance and mess up someone. This opens up ability to drop the body weight down and strike up at the same time or to step left while striking right or adapt a strike on contact but still have knock out power. This is not a skill normally seem with strikers unless they are really relaxed yet coordinated.

Regarding bows (joints) and internal punches, Nima talks about internal power that doesn't require a lot of momentum, rotation, etc.

@ 7:56, "open stabilization: every joint in your body being active. It's not a static thing. There's flow in it. . . . No matter what you move it's going to have power, even if you just move one joint."

MARTIAL ARTS - Use the Joints correctly!
We always talk about the power of relaxation in Chu Shong Tin's method of Wing Chun. In this video I'm talking about the importance of 'open stabilization' which is an attribute of relaxation, and how it can be used to develop power. — with Nima King.

https://www.facebook.com/sifunimaking/v ... 7398712229

@11:15,"This is how we are able to tap into our mass. . . . If all your joints are relaxed, you can utilize all of them. or as much as you can feel, at the same time. . . . @11:52, Imagine you got a bicycle. It's got the chain that goes around ten cogs. . . . All ten cogs move at the same time. There's a lot of power in that chain."

THE MARTIAL MAN
Dec 15, 2018:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-71qg53gVQ

Mindful Wing Chun
May 13, 2017

CST explains and demonstrates how to control the joints of the body simultaneously to maximize power and efficiency in all movements:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFSsLfP95tQ

Mindful Wing Chun
Feb 19, 2017

Relaxation is often misunderstood in Wing Chun so hopefully this video will help shed some light on the subject:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0vyQXluCtI
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:11 pm

marvin8 wrote:I wasn't implying you. I meant Chen Village.

I'm not sure what you mean by Chen village. I train with people from Chen village and they seem pretty modest. I think they are proud of their heritage, but I've never heard one of them say taijiquan is the best martial art or that Chen taijiquan is the best taijiquan. When I met CXW I was doing xingyi and bagua. He started asking if I taught (I didn't and don't) and said he had a friend who did xingyi and he could put me in touch with him if I wanted.

marvin8 wrote:Well, can you find and timestamp any moment that Wang Yan uses internal power? I am not saying whether they are doing taiji or not. I just don't see them using the power generation practiced in the forms in their actual fights. But, I may have missed it.

When he moves in at 0:41 and then throws. There's a strike at 1:36 followed with a throw. 2:02, 2:43, the right at 3:01, the right at 3:33, and the left hook that follows are some in the beginning. Of course that's my opinion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0RqOGqMNvI
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:44 pm

robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Well, can you find and timestamp any moment that Wang Yan uses internal power? I am not saying whether they are doing taiji or not. I just don't see them using the power generation practiced in the forms in their actual fights. But, I may have missed it.

When he moves in at 0:41 and then throws. There's a strike at 1:36 followed with a throw. 2:02, 2:43, the right at 3:01, the right at 3:33, and the left hook that follows are some in the beginning. Of course that's my opinion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0RqOGqMNvI

Do you see a difference in power generation between those moves and sanda moves? If so, can you describe it?
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:10 pm

marvin8 wrote:Do you see a difference in power generation between those moves and sanda moves? If so, can you describe it?

I don't know sanda so I grabbed a clip on youtube.

Sanshou Sanda 2016 World Cup Semi Finals France vs China 85 Kg Men


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsZirt03UXc

I watched the Chinese guy and he looks external to me. In low power mode the sanda guy is mostly upper body and when he wants more power he adds waist and legs. The taiji guy in the muay thai match uses kua and yao (legs, waist, lower back) for the most part with the upper body transmitting the power, not generating much.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:09 pm

robert wrote:I watched the Chinese guy and he looks external to me. In low power mode the sanda guy is mostly upper body and when he wants more power he adds waist and legs. The taiji guy in the muay thai match uses kua and yao (legs, waist, lower back) for the most part with the upper body transmitting the power, not generating much.

I believe this is the most important part of this discussion here.

Full power - require full body unification.
Partial power - only require partial body unification.

For example, you don't need full body unification for:

- fake punch.
- block a weak punch such as a jab.
- foot sweep.
- …

The reason is simple, it's faster and less commitment, and won't affect your own balance. This only has to do with right and wrong. It has nothing to do with "internal" or external.

In the following foot sweep solo training, the up body is not coordinated with the lower body on purpose.

Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:46 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
Trick wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Not tension upon impact. Compression to initiate the strike. Before and after that brief moment one should be relaxed and structure will handle the rest. It is like a spear. If the spear were limp would it penetrate? Would a limp sword? Swords designed primarily for thrusting are very stiff. Using our supple human bodies we can change this at will or even exhibit characteristics of both. That is why we train the tendons more than muscles.

yes ok, of course muscles are at work when moving, but surely you dont 'willingly tense'/'compress' during fighting/freesparring (striking style) ?.......frail straws of grass has been seen been piercing into sturdy wooden poles after a tornado has passed by. ....do you walk barefoot at home? ever got a straw of hair stuck in the sole of the foot..really uncomfortable(yes im a softie 8-) )..anyway alignment and precision

Yes, for less than a second to initiate the strike. That is what ignites the engine that eventually produces a strike using shocking power (what this thread was supposed to be about). Several other people on this thread have described this process in their own way and lead me to believe that they have either experienced or can generate this power. For people that literally spend all day discussing these things I get the overwhelming impression that you lot have never felt this type of power, much less generated it on your own...

In practice if the exercises are correctly designed and often combined with specific ‘visualization’, this compression/releasing, contracting/stretching, open/closing comes around, it’s very noticeable, but one must beware here, it’s very easy to get stuck with those feelings....Practice the exercises correct and it all comes out naturally. A split second of misplaced focus might be disastrous.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:23 am

marvin8 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Relaxed striking is not a big deal. The problem is the claims made that "internal" striking is somehow superior that annoys people who don't do CIMA. Is this an internal punch?

The problem is, If "internal striking is superior" why are Chen Village fighters using external striking biomechanics in actual fights? Why not use the superior striking biomechanics practiced in the forms?

robert wrote:I don't understand your thought process.
robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Are these internal punches using internal power generation? If so, they look the same as sanda. If not, why not use internal punches (e.g., slower, distance, etc.)?
Image

Those look external to me.
robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Do you see a difference in power generation between those moves and sanda moves? If so, can you describe it?
The taiji guy in the muay thai match uses kua and yao (legs, waist, lower back) for the most part with then upper body transmitting the power, not generating much.

In the video, Chen Xiaowang demonstrates generating power starting at the dantian with his rear foot flat on the floor.

In contrast, as you said, Wang Yan's (taiji) punches "look external," apparently generating power starting at the rear foot transferring ground reaction force through the kinetic chain (whole body power). With proper technique, external guys (e.g., sanda, boxing, MMA) also generate power involving the kua and yao (legs, waist, lower back) using the kinetic chain.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby LaoDan on Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:57 am

One can transmit force through “full body unification” in several different ways.

One is the sequential action (kinetic chain) as demonstrated in CXW’s fajin video:

Here there is force being transmitted up from the ground and being directed by each successive body unit until it reaches the fist. This is the familiar whip like movement, similar to how one throws a baseball, and is common for many activities including most martial arts.

As I understand it, the method used in the OP that illustrates the 1” or 3” punch is different. It is more like how the Newton”s Cradle toy works:

At ~1:39 the alignment of the balls is off and the force is no longer transmitted properly, but when aligned properly the force is transmitted from one end to the other. If our joints are not united properly, then force will “leak” to the sides rather than being transmitted through to the next body segment resulting in less power transmission to the last segment (the fist).

In the 1” or 3” punch version the body weight is frequently dropped into the foot/root, and can be done more visibly with the boxer’s drop step as shown in MarvinB’s video:
marvin8 wrote:Image
The rebound from the ground then needs to be transmitted through a properly aligned body structure in order to transmit a powerful strike with the fist. Here the force is being transmitted in a manner like the Newton’s Cradle toy rather than like a whip.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:38 am

LaoDan wrote:As I understand it, the method used in the OP that illustrates the 1” or 3” punch is different. It is more like how the Newton”s Cradle toy works:

At ~1:39 the alignment of the balls is off and the force is no longer transmitted properly, but when aligned properly the force is transmitted from one end to the other. If our joints are not united properly, then force will “leak” to the sides rather than being transmitted through to the next body segment resulting in less power transmission to the last segment (the fist).

In the 1” or 3” punch version the body weight is frequently dropped into the foot/root, and can be done more visibly with the boxer’s drop step as shown in MarvinB’s video:
marvin8 wrote:Image
The rebound from the ground then needs to be transmitted through a properly aligned body structure in order to transmit a powerful strike with the fist. Here the force is being transmitted in a manner like the Newton’s Cradle toy rather than like a whip.

Al Colangelo, demonstrator in the OP video, describes his method.

Facebook Excerpts:
Lino Al Colangelo on January 12, 2015 wrote:INTERNAL POWER OF TAI CHI
This is one more reason why Tai-Chi is called "The Grand-Ultimate" art of all...leverage Plus...Confirmed by Master Willy Wetzel...

Deriving from the muscles, the pathways of chi, tenacious strength is superior in every way to force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpdi45pexc4

Tai-Chi develops tentacle like power similar to tree roots only deeper...too many underestimate this power

If you doubt that Edric or Doc Chang from our group can do this? You are off by miles...

FROM A THEORY BASED LEVERAGE POINT:
http://taiji-europa.eu/…/5-most-important-beginner-s-skill…/

AND FROM A STRIKING PERSPECTIVE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkXSsHdGFkI

NOTE: Why this is far beyond Bruce Lee's One inch punch which used shifting momentum, rotation of shoulders, hips & an aluminum chair for sound effects after having PUSHED the guy who is already completely imbalanced etc...this demo shows only the power of the mind...2 of the 5 guys absorbing the strike are over 6'3...one is at 6'8 300lbs...
Lino Al Colangelo on January 23, 2015 wrote:This internal strike has to do with Projecting Energy NOT mere Mechanics as you do NOT see hip rotation, waist movement, shoulder rotation or turning & shifting motions at all. Note the Zero Distance strike on this clip as well meaning NO distance between target & the fist...yet the opponent is K.O. at 6'8, 285 That is considered the real INTERNAL STRIKE far above a one inch punch...again w.o. using the rotation of joints.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:06 am

marvin8 wrote:In the video, Chen Xiaowang demonstrates generating power starting at the dantian with his rear foot flat on the floor.

In contrast, as you said, Wang Yan's (taiji) punches "look external," apparently generating power starting at the rear foot transferring ground reaction force through the kinetic chain (whole body power).

Some of Wang Yan's (taiji) punches "look external" although after looking at the clip of the sanda guy I think it's more a question that on some punches Wang Yan over extends.

marvin8 wrote:With proper technique, external guys (e.g., sanda, boxing, MMA) also generate power involving the kua and yao (legs, waist, lower back) using the kinetic chain.

And yet they are still different. ::)
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