Internal punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal punch

Postby LaoDan on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:15 am

marvin8 wrote:Al Colangelo, demonstrator in the OP video, describes his method.

Facebook Excerpts:
Lino Al Colangelo on January 12, 2015 wrote:INTERNAL POWER OF TAI CHI
This is one more reason why Tai-Chi is called "The Grand-Ultimate" art of all...leverage Plus...Confirmed by Master Willy Wetzel...

Deriving from the muscles, the pathways of chi, tenacious strength is superior in every way to force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpdi45pexc4

Tai-Chi develops tentacle like power similar to tree roots only deeper...too many underestimate this power

If you doubt that Edric or Doc Chang from our group can do this? You are off by miles...

FROM A THEORY BASED LEVERAGE POINT:
http://taiji-europa.eu/…/5-most-important-beginner-s-skill…/

AND FROM A STRIKING PERSPECTIVE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkXSsHdGFkI

NOTE: Why this is far beyond Bruce Lee's One inch punch which used shifting momentum, rotation of shoulders, hips & an aluminum chair for sound effects after having PUSHED the guy who is already completely imbalanced etc...this demo shows only the power of the mind...2 of the 5 guys absorbing the strike are over 6'3...one is at 6'8 300lbs...
Lino Al Colangelo on January 23, 2015 wrote:This internal strike has to do with Projecting Energy NOT mere Mechanics as you do NOT see hip rotation, waist movement, shoulder rotation or turning & shifting motions at all. Note the Zero Distance strike on this clip as well meaning NO distance between target & the fist...yet the opponent is K.O. at 6'8, 285 That is considered the real INTERNAL STRIKE far above a one inch punch...again w.o. using the rotation of joints.

Well, I am not such a purist. The kinetic chain type of power generation frequently can use some of the rebounding into the ground (Newton’s Cradle power transmission) when initiated; so perhaps 5% Newton’s Cradle power transmission plus 95% kinetic chain, or whatever. Likewise, Newton’s Cradle power transmission can end with some kinetic chain, so perhaps 95% Newton’s Cradle power transmission plus 5% kinetic chain, or whatever.

Newton’s Cradle power transmission should not REQUIRE kinetic chain rotation, but can end with it, in my opinion, without invalidating the technique. However, it can be slightly harder to maintain proper alignments when introducing rotation; but if the power transmission alignment is not sacrificed when ending with the rotation, well then I have no problem with it.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:18 am

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Re: Internal punch

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:44 am

I use the method called Bolang Jin or Bolang Li (Crashing Wave Power). It’s one of the ways that the ‘Zhedie Xiong Yao’ (Folding up the chest and waist) works.

It’s basically learning to do two different movements in your body at the same time. The first movement is a quick snap of the lumbar sacrum and tailbone from one position to the other. If you know the yoga postures of the cat and cow and how the lumbar is shaped in them, then the Bolang Li Method is the lightning fast transition from cow to cat, (but with lots of refinement it’s not that noticeable as those actual postures.) This movement will jolt or motivate the mass of flesh in your abdomen and ideally continue moving the wave of flesh upward and out into the attacking arm, where the wave of flesh arrives right as contact is made with the opponent. You can’t see this (unless you have at 1000 frames per second camera). But you can feel the weight of the flesh moving. And you can learn to sort of shape it and control it with different degrees of tensing and relaxing the different sections of your body.

I liken it to my skateboarding days. Where to do an Ollie (jump the board up) you have to learn to do two things at once. Then you learn to shape it and learn to do all sorts of different kickflips and shove-its.

For solo practice and striking in the air, it also allows you to use full speed and power because the movement if flesh and connective tissues that is now moving right along side of the bones of your arms, prevents any hyperextension.

.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby LaoDan on Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:03 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I use the method called Bolang Jin or Bolang Li (Crashing Wave Power).

Do you know if that is the same as the so called "dragon back" jin?
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:38 pm

D_Glenn wrote:I use the method called Bolang Jin or Bolang Li (Crashing Wave Power). It’s one of the ways that the ‘Zhedie Xiong Yao’ (Folding up the chest and waist) works.

It’s basically learning to do two different movements in your body at the same time. The first movement is a quick snap of the lumbar sacrum and tailbone from one position to the other. If you know the yoga postures of the cat and cow and how the lumbar is shaped in them, then the Bolang Li Method is the lightning fast transition from cow to cat, (but with lots of refinement it’s not that noticeable as those actual postures.) This movement will jolt or motivate the mass of flesh in your abdomen and ideally continue moving the wave of flesh upward and out into the attacking arm, where the wave of flesh arrives right as contact is made with the opponent. You can’t see this (unless you have at 1000 frames per second camera). But you can feel the weight of the flesh moving. And you can learn to sort of shape it and control it with different degrees of tensing and relaxing the different sections of your body.

I liken it to my skateboarding days. Where to do an Ollie (jump the board up) you have to learn to do two things at once. Then you learn to shape it and learn to do all sorts of different kickflips and shove-its.

For solo practice and striking in the air, it also allows you to use full speed and power because the movement if flesh and connective tissues that is now moving right along side of the bones of your arms, prevents any hyperextension.

.

Could you explain the initial shock of your Bolangjin for us non-Yoga practitioners? Is it rapidly lowering your centre of gravity whilst tucking in your tailbone? If so, it sounds like what I do. I also totally agree about not being able to hyperextend your elbow. That is another major benefit. I feel like doing it with a vertical fist also helps with the alignment and further reduces the risk of injury.

Beyond this I also flex my back leg if into a fighting stance and rapidly rotate my waist and pull back my right elbow slightly as my left fist attacks. Upon completion of the attack they are both retracted by my waist pulling back naturally. This horizontal rotation is called Doujin, or shaking power. I have also experienced skilled Xinyiliuhequan practitions such as my Master and Zhang Binghai achieving a similar effect with vertical rotation, though I only dabbled. Regardless of the method, all of this takes less than a second and looks kind of like a dangerous, controlled spazz. =P
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:49 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:[]
Could you explain the initial shock of your Bolangjin for us non-Yoga practitioners? Is it rapidly lowering your centre of gravity whilst tucking in your tailbone? If so, it sounds like what I do. I also totally agree about not being able to hyperextend your elbow. That is another major benefit. I feel like doing it with a vertical fist also helps with the alignment and further reduces the risk of injury.


He already has.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 9a3b9d509a
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:36 pm


Thanks for pointing that out. Good write up D_Glenn.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:49 pm

FWIW I think the Dai family is pretty explicit about how to train and use the back bow. From another thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMkT7sl594c
Note that the guys get corrected when standing in squatting monkey. There's more going on than just bending the yao - the body needs to be connected. The yao drives the movements of the limbs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv4DiaU4o48
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Re: Internal punch

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:45 pm

LaoDan wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:I use the method called Bolang Jin or Bolang Li (Crashing Wave Power).

Do you know if that is the same as the so called "dragon back" jin?

If someone, or a lineage, actually still knows and does the Bolang Li movement correctly than yes, it is what the Dragon back and Tiger Waist refers to. But nowadays that terminology has pretty much lost any value since there’s so many different ideas and theories of what it means.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:59 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
LaoDan wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:I use the method called Bolang Jin or Bolang Li (Crashing Wave Power).

Do you know if that is the same as the so called "dragon back" jin?

If someone, or a lineage, actually still knows and does the Bolang Li movement correctly than yes, it is what the Dragon back and Tiger Waist refers to. But nowadays that terminology has pretty much lost any value since there’s so many different ideas and theories of what it means.


Interesting terminology

Inside the boxing, the chicken legs, the dragon waist, the bear, the tiger, the head and the thunder are all in one. Among them, the dragon waist, some people think that it is the waist, but it is not. Even if it is a dragon, why is there a waist? It can be said that it is waist everywhere, so it is more appropriate to call the dragon body. To fully embody the dragon body on the human body, you have to let the ribs roll and fold, and you can do everything, not only to live, but also to be able to take the initiative.


Image

https://www.toutiao.com/i6761027616305578504/


Image

The main part is the middle section of the human body. The scorpion and the spine are collectively referred to as the dragon and tiger's strength. Observing the person's body is twisted, and before using the special training, they are used to twisting the lumbar spine. Look at the animals again, after the body is wet, shake the body for a moment, is to use the butt to drive the body to shake, we call the "Tiger Shake" power, enviable! The first step in practicing our minds is to "shake" and there is a lot of power!
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Re: Internal punch

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:00 pm

Could you explain the initial shock of your Bolangjin for us non-Yoga practitioners? Is it rapidly lowering your centre of gravity whilst tucking in your tailbone? If so, it sounds like what I do. I also totally agree about not being able to hyperextend your elbow. That is another major benefit. I feel like doing it with a vertical fist also helps with the alignment and further reduces the risk of injury.

Beyond this I also flex my back leg if into a fighting stance and rapidly rotate my waist and pull back my right elbow slightly as my left fist attacks. Upon completion of the attack they are both retracted by my waist pulling back naturally. This horizontal rotation is called Doujin, or shaking power. I have also experienced skilled Xinyiliuhequan practitions such as my Master and Zhang Binghai achieving a similar effect with vertical rotation, though I only dabbled. Regardless of the method, all of this takes less than a second and looks kind of like a dangerous, controlled spazz. =P
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri No


Yes on tailbone tucking under while lumbar rounds out towards the back (cat shaped back). But there doesn’t have to be an actual drop of body height. The movement could be done while your whole body is rising. But there is a sort of feeling of sinking or resting back into the abdomen as the tailbone is tucking under. The tailbone should be like a little boot that kicks your abdomen (Dantian) upward, then the upward movement hits your diaphragm, where since this is using a Reverse Breath, the force moves out towards the lumbar.

A Zhen Jin is something that can be added into the Bolang Li, and that is where you would want the weight of your flesh to drop all the way down to your feet and bounce back up as the wave from the tailbone is arriving at your hand. We first learn all our striking techniques doing just the Bolang Li, then the more difficult level is learning to do almost all those strikes with a Zhen Jin. They don’t look quite the same though because the Zhen Jin strikes you try to stop the movement at the point of contact.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:11 pm

The two ways to use the ‘Yao’ waist (Dantian). The waist in the CIMA includes the whole abdomen, insides of the pelvic cavity and the tailbone, sacrum and lumbar vertebrae (Yaobei lit back of waist).

So using the isometric power of the lumbar to spring it from one shape into the opposite shape is called ‘Zhedie’.

Using the horizontal rotational power of the Abdominal muscles is called ‘Zhuanhuan’.

These two are always working together but they are separate things. They’re like the two knobs of an Etch a Sketch. One controls the horizontal while the other is the vertical. If you can turn them both at the same time then you can draw a diagonal line, or better yet, circles.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:31 pm

robert wrote:FWIW I think the Dai family is pretty explicit about how to train and use the back bow. From another thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMkT7sl594c
Note that the guys get corrected when standing in squatting monkey. There's more going on than just bending the yao - the body needs to be connected. The yao drives the movements of the limbs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv4DiaU4o48


Actually, what they’re doing is a lot older than what I do and am describing. They use what’s called ‘Head [of the snake] Leads the Power’, and it’s their cervical vertebrae and a sort of Dantian in the throat called the ‘Monkeys Fist’, that is the driver or impetus of power being put into their arms. At some point in time, someone asked, “What if I use the ‘Tail of the Snake to lead my Power.’ And that’s where the Bolang Li (and Fanlang Reverse Wave) was started.

Shaolin styles use a method where they look at the spinal column as resembling a Whip, and the sacrum is the handle of the whip and you want to use it to lash your shoulders forward. But this is almost purely mechanical or in the bones, and doesn’t really get into the nuances of flesh. And the larger the whipping movement is, the greater effect, and therefore this method will diminish with old age. Where the Bolang Li Method only gets more refined with age and packs more power into a smaller and almost indiscernible movement.

Here’s a video I filmed around 2003, back when I was still on the tail end of learning it, and thus, no refinement.


https://youtu.be/kd7SbYVtRu4
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Re: Internal punch

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:56 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
robert wrote:FWIW I think the Dai family is pretty explicit about how to train and use the back bow. From another thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMkT7sl594c
Note that the guys get corrected when standing in squatting monkey. There's more going on than just bending the yao - the body needs to be connected. The yao drives the movements of the limbs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv4DiaU4o48


Actually, what they’re doing is a lot older than what I do and am describing. They use what’s called ‘Head [of the snake] Leads the Power’, and it’s their cervical vertebrae and a sort of Dantian in the throat called the ‘Monkeys Fist’, that is the driver or impetus of power being put into their arms. At some point in time, someone asked, “What if I use the ‘Tail of the Snake to lead my Power.’ And that’s where the Bolang Li (and Fanlang Reverse Wave) was started.

Shaolin styles use a method where they look at the spinal column as resembling a Whip, and the sacrum is the handle of the whip and you want to use it to lash your shoulders forward. But this is almost purely mechanical or in the bones, and doesn’t really get into the nuances of flesh. And the larger the whipping movement is, the greater effect, and therefore this method will diminish with old age. Where the Bolang Li Method only gets more refined with age and packs more power into a smaller and almost indiscernible movement.

Here’s a video I filmed around 2003, back when I was still on the tail end of learning it, and thus, no refinement.


https://youtu.be/kd7SbYVtRu4


It might be interesting to see the same movements with 16 years of refinement in them.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:46 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Actually, what they’re doing is a lot older than what I do and am describing. They use what’s called ‘Head [of the snake] Leads the Power’, and it’s their cervical vertebrae and a sort of Dantian in the throat called the ‘Monkeys Fist’, that is the driver or impetus of power being put into their arms. At some point in time, someone asked, “What if I use the ‘Tail of the Snake to lead my Power.’ And that’s where the Bolang Li (and Fanlang Reverse Wave) was started.

Thanks for the information. I didn't mean to imply that was the same thing as Bolang Li; that's why I called it back bow. I haven't studied Dai family xinyi, but I've discussed it with people who have studied with Li Tailiang and they showed me that the dantian was driving the movement and it derives from the squatting monkey exercise.
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