Internal punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal punch

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:08 am

I was just stating a generalization of some styles of Xinyi (although Dai style is sort of its own). The Xinyidao guys, to my eye, look like they’re using more of a Fanlangjin (Reverse wave) but as the strikes are going away from the body. But there’s still also still a lot of the head movement.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:58 am

robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In the video, Chen Xiaowang demonstrates generating power starting at the dantian with his rear foot flat on the floor.

In contrast, as you said, Wang Yan's (taiji) punches "look external," apparently generating power starting at the rear foot transferring ground reaction force through the kinetic chain (whole body power).

Some of Wang Yan's (taiji) punches "look external" although after looking at the clip of the sanda guy I think it's more a question that on some punches Wang Yan over extends.

Whether he overextends or not, Wang still seems not to generate power the same way Chen Xiaowang demonstrates using the dantian.

robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:With proper technique, external guys (e.g., sanda, boxing, MMA) also generate power involving the kua and yao (legs, waist, lower back) using the kinetic chain.

And yet they are still different. ::)

Wang Yan's punch biomechanics "look external" as described. So, how are "they still different?"

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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:39 am

marvin8 wrote:Whether he overextends or not, Wang still seems not to generate power the same way Chen Xiaowang demonstrates using the dantian.

It looks the same to me. What do you see as different?


marvin8 wrote:So, how are "they still different?"

As I said in a previous post look at the low power mode. Also you asked how Wang Yan compared to a sanda guy. Do you think those two are using the same body mechanics? Can you specify three or four strikes in the match below where the Chinese sanda guy uses the body mechanics of the strikes or throws I pointed out in the muay thai match?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsZirt03UXc
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:04 pm

robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Whether he overextends or not, Wang still seems not to generate power the same way Chen Xiaowang demonstrates using the dantian.

It looks the same to me. What do you see as different?

Well, I already described the difference:
marvin8 wrote:In the video, Chen Xiaowang demonstrates generating power starting at the dantian with his rear foot flat on the floor.

In contrast, as you said, Wang Yan's (taiji) punches "look external," apparently generating power starting at the rear foot transferring ground reaction force through the kinetic chain (whole body power).


robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:So, how are "they still different?"

As I said in a previous post look at the low power mode. Also you asked how Wang Yan compared to a sanda guy. Do you think those two are using the same body mechanics? Can you specify three or four strikes in the match below where the Chinese sanda guy uses the body mechanics of the strikes or throws I pointed out in the muay thai match?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsZirt03UXc

I see the Chinese sanda guy clinching, pushing and kicking (very boring). Can you timestamp the Chinese sanda guy throwing a punch for comparison?

That is why I posted the Mayweather clip: same punch, same distance and same biomechanics. Wang himself said, "I was taught, for example, some external martial arts as well, particularly sanda and shaolin kungfu. ..." What difference do you see between Mayweather's and Wang Yan's punch?
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Re: Internal punch

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:05 am

MaartenSFS wrote:... I also totally agree about not being able to hyperextend your elbow. That is another major benefit.


I think that’s a huge benefit, that isn’t brought up enough.

Being able to do thousands of strikes a day with full power, speed, extension and follow through.

Versus first learning to have to hold back everything as you strike, so that you don’t hurt yourself, and then over the years just trying to make those held-back strikes become faster and somehow more powerful.

I had, at some time in the past, glanced at some of your older videos of your Chinese teachers but do you have any clips that are showing them doing the Zhen Jin movements?
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:36 am

marvin8 wrote:Well, I already described the difference:
marvin8 wrote:In the video, Chen Xiaowang demonstrates generating power starting at the dantian with his rear foot flat on the floor.

In contrast, as you said, Wang Yan's (taiji) punches "look external," apparently generating power starting at the rear foot transferring ground reaction force through the kinetic chain (whole body power).


Are you saying that the concept of kinetic chain does not apply to what CXW is doing? And are you equating the concept of whole body power to the concept of the kinetic chain? Do you think that ground reaction force does not apply to what CXW is doing?

I pointed out a number of moves of Wang Yan's that I think are internal and said the clip you put together looks like he is over extending. You keep posting the clips that I think are bad form. Do you think the clip of Wang Yan that you put together is a fair representation of his movements in the match?
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:56 am

D_Glenn wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:... I also totally agree about not being able to hyperextend your elbow. That is another major benefit.


I think that’s a huge benefit, that isn’t brought up enough.

Being able to do thousands of strikes a day with full power, speed, extension and follow through.

Versus first learning to have to hold back everything as you strike, so that you don’t hurt yourself, and then over the years just trying to make those held-back strikes become faster and somehow more powerful.

I had, at some time in the past, glanced at some of your older videos of your Chinese teachers but do you have any clips that are showing them doing the Zhen Jin movements?

Sorry that I haven't been able to reply. I may be going back to school soon. On my Youtube channel there is a Shanzhaiquan documentary in which my Master shows it quite clearly (clear for you). There is another video where he does a form and he does a little. Then, in the off-topic section I posted a documentary where there is a short clip which clearly shows me doing it. The rest I have on my computer, including my Master sending someone flying and a Chen Taiji form. Oh, and the swordsmanship video that I just posted shows it VERY clearly. I totally agree about Zhenjin versus non-Zhenjin punches.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Bill on Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:39 am

One thing I've learned from this thread is that 'Internal Punch' can be used to beat a dead horse.
It hurts when I Pi
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Re: Internal punch

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:24 pm

robert wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Well, I already described the difference:
marvin8 wrote:In the video, Chen Xiaowang demonstrates generating power starting at the dantian with his rear foot flat on the floor.

In contrast, as you said, Wang Yan's (taiji) punches "look external," apparently generating power starting at the rear foot transferring ground reaction force through the kinetic chain (whole body power).


Are you saying that the concept of kinetic chain does not apply to what CXW is doing? And are you equating the concept of whole body power to the concept of the kinetic chain? Do you think that ground reaction force does not apply to what CXW is doing?

No. It might apply. Kinetic chain is a broad term unless you qualify it. So, it can make things more confusing. But, it does include body parts moving in sequential order from the feet to the hands. I was using it to describe how most external fighters throw a straight punch. As internal power has been described in this thread, CXW appears to rely less on ground reaction force, momentum, more on dantian and shows more body parts firing at the same time (explosiveness). There seems to be a difference in power generation between CXW and an external fighter (e.g., sanda, MMA, boxing).

robert wrote:I pointed out a number of moves of Wang Yan's that I think are internal and said the clip you put together looks like he is over extending. You keep posting the clips that I think are bad form. Do you think the clip of Wang Yan that you put together is a fair representation of his movements in the match?

The thread topic is "internal punch." I was comparing the same straight punch done by CXW, Wang and Mayweather. I have no control over how Wang throws his straight punches when fighting. The clip was most of Wang's straight punches from punching range for a fair comparison. I am short of time at the moment. I can clarify more later.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby everything on Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:31 pm

Bill wrote:One thing I've learned from this thread is that 'Internal Punch' can be used to beat a dead horse.


;D

ground

if we were floating in the ocean or suspended from a rope and tried to punch the same way, it wouldn't work so well.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:52 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
Could you explain the initial shock of your Bolangjin for us non-Yoga practitioners? Is it rapidly lowering your centre of gravity whilst tucking in your tailbone? If so, it sounds like what I do. I also totally agree about not being able to hyperextend your elbow. That is another major benefit. I feel like doing it with a vertical fist also helps with the alignment and further reduces the risk of injury.

Beyond this I also flex my back leg if into a fighting stance and rapidly rotate my waist and pull back my right elbow slightly as my left fist attacks. Upon completion of the attack they are both retracted by my waist pulling back naturally. This horizontal rotation is called Doujin, or shaking power. I have also experienced skilled Xinyiliuhequan practitions such as my Master and Zhang Binghai achieving a similar effect with vertical rotation, though I only dabbled. Regardless of the method, all of this takes less than a second and looks kind of like a dangerous, controlled spazz. =P
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri No


Yes on tailbone tucking under while lumbar rounds out towards the back (cat shaped back). But there doesn’t have to be an actual drop of body height. The movement could be done while your whole body is rising. But there is a sort of feeling of sinking or resting back into the abdomen as the tailbone is tucking under. The tailbone should be like a little boot that kicks your abdomen (Dantian) upward, then the upward movement hits your diaphragm, where since this is using a Reverse Breath, the force moves out towards the lumbar.

A Zhen Jin is something that can be added into the Bolang Li, and that is where you would want the weight of your flesh to drop all the way down to your feet and bounce back up as the wave from the tailbone is arriving at your hand. We first learn all our striking techniques doing just the Bolang Li, then the more difficult level is learning to do almost all those strikes with a Zhen Jin. They don’t look quite the same though because the Zhen Jin strikes you try to stop the movement at the point of contact.

What you are describing is exactly what I feel. I forgot about rising strikes. Zhenjin can also be added to swinging strikes (甩劲), but it depends on the direction of travel. Usually, we breathe in for strikes that move towards the body and breathe out for strikes that move away from it. Or we breathe in for the first strike of a two-strike combination, for example.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby robert on Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:59 pm

marvin8 wrote:No. It might apply. Kinetic chain is a broad term unless you qualify it.

I agree. The holiday season has arrived for me, I probably won't be on the forum for a while, we'll have to continue in another thread sometime.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:35 am

Bill wrote:One thing I've learned from this thread is that 'Internal Punch' can be used to beat a dead horse.

Again, people like to talk about "internal punch" without any discussion on how to deliver it. What's the usage of this power and that power if your opponent moves around and your hand can't even touch him?
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Re: Internal punch

Postby dspyrido on Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:53 pm

johnwang wrote:Again, people like to talk about "internal punch" without any discussion on how to deliver it. What's the usage of this power and that power if your opponent moves around and your hand can't even touch him?


I can't speak for everyone but I mentioned how the stuff I class as "internal punches" can be used. Once distance is closed to mix in grappling (head, arm control) + a sudden movement that messes up the attacker.

Another use is being to step one direction while striking the other (eg step left, strike right) & do it with impact that if it's not avoided can hurt the attacker. No need to step, stop and strike.

Really hard to see & understand where the impact came from should define internal strikes.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby johnwang on Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:34 pm

Here is a simple test.

- If you can make your "internal punch" to land on your opponent's body within 1 minute, you win that round. Otherwise you lose that round.
- Test this for 15 rounds and record the result.
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