Internal punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:29 pm

dspyrido wrote:
johnwang wrote:Again, people like to talk about "internal punch" without any discussion on how to deliver it. What's the usage of this power and that power if your opponent moves around and your hand can't even touch him?


I can't speak for everyone but I mentioned how the stuff I class as "internal punches" can be used. Once distance is closed to mix in grappling (head, arm control) + a sudden movement that messes up the attacker.

Another use is being to step one direction while striking the other (eg step left, strike right) & do it with impact that if it's not avoided can hurt the attacker. No need to step, stop and strike.

Really hard to see & understand where the impact came from should define internal strikes.

In my training there is no difference. Long or short, open or closed, up or down. Most of my strikes are internal. They use either Zhenjin or Shuaijin or a combination of the two. Both of these types of power can be found in Xinyiliuhequan.

I will say that if I were to become totally exhausted I would be less able to add internal power, but that can be said of anything..
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:32 pm

johnwang wrote:Here is a simple test.

- If you can make your "internal punch" to land on your opponent's body within 1 minute, you win that round. Otherwise you lose that round.
- Test this for 15 rounds and record the result.

Not a problem! Unless they are so good that I can't land anything at all! :D

In this video most of my attacks are internal: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=you ... f7rFnb0cdI

See my training and then my fencing. They are the same. If that's not how you [all] do it, it may be time for a change!
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby dspyrido on Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:43 pm

johnwang wrote:Here is a simple test.

- If you can make your "internal punch" to land on your opponent's body within 1 minute, you win that round. Otherwise you lose that round.
- Test this for 15 rounds and record the result.


I had this in mind while sparring the last couple of nights & whether I could test this way or another. Two formats used in sparring:

1. 16oz gloves: typical kickboxing with controlled knees, throws. Stops if it goes to the ground.
2. 4oz gloves: submission on ground with throws. Includes punches to the body (no kicks or knees)

Using 16oz gloves the "internal" strike didn't do enough & as required the extra muscling to penetrate making it "external". This includes step & punch like bung found in xy, drop step, hip rotations, ground line chains to drive from legs and so on. All standard kickboxing/sanda hits had no problems with straights, cross, hooks etc.

Using 4oz gloves and infighting and the "internal" punches worked nicely. A little too good. I had to stop them.

IMO

1. Gloves make a difference
2. The ability to deliver right time and place is more important than the power applied
3. Internal/external has strengths and weaknesses
4. After 25 rounds done over 2 sessions the ability to breath under pressure and control the tempo is the #1 priority
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:53 am

Very interesting. I've only ever used 10 oz gloves, which have worked fine for me, even with the additional protection of headguards. 16 oz seems like over kill. For Shuaijin, though, even the heaviest gloves and headguards are unsafe, as the penetration is so deep.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:33 pm

@ Maarten

Thanks for posting those clips

I’ve been watching them.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:57 am

My pleasure. Do you feel like we are doing the same thing?
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:19 am

dspyrido wrote:
johnwang wrote:Again, people like to talk about "internal punch" without any discussion on how to deliver it. What's the usage of this power and that power if your opponent moves around and your hand can't even touch him?


I can't speak for everyone but I mentioned how the stuff I class as "internal punches" can be used. Once distance is closed to mix in grappling (head, arm control) + a sudden movement that messes up the attacker.

Another use is being to step one direction while striking the other (eg step left, strike right) & do it with impact that if it's not avoided can hurt the attacker. No need to step, stop and strike.

Really hard to see & understand where the impact came from should define internal strikes.

Yes here is the gist of the internal punch.....Take the opponent by surprise by unpredictable non telegraphing strikes.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:55 am

Yes here is the gist of the internal punch.....Take the opponent by surprise by unpredictable non telegraphing strikes.


By this measure any good boxer is using internal.

The words internal and external really don't do much to convey what is being done. They are descriptive of what is being seen.

As to the question of what is being done. ie what makes something in internal or not.

. Consider a common phenomenon observed at a softball game - the collision of a bat with a ball. A batter is able to transport energy from her to the softball by means of a bat. The batter applies a force to the bat, thus imparting energy to the bat in the form of kinetic energy. The bat then carries this energy to the softball and transports the energy to the softball upon collision. In this example, a bat is used to transport energy from the player to the softball.

However, unlike wave phenomena, this phenomenon involves the transport of matter. The bat must move from its starting location to the contact location in order to transport energy.

In a wave phenomenon, energy can move from one location to another, yet the particles of matter in the medium return to their fixed position. A wave transports its energy without transporting matter.


. A wave transports its energy without transporting matter.


All that's needed is a connection.

Discribes a methodology that can be applied to any action based on observed results .
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:24 am

Besides internal punch, how about internal kick, or internal throw? I had asked the difference between internal front kick and external front kick. I still have not obtained a good answer yet.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:39 pm

I learned an internal front and side kick. It's kind of like Zhenjin. Very powerful, very fast, but hard to explain...
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Re: Internal punch

Postby edededed on Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:41 pm

My understanding is that internal kick is similar to internal punch, just with the leg. (E.g. one can try to do bengquan, but with the foot - imagine teaching xingyi to someone who has no arms.) Only one leg to stand on (less stability), less granular control over legs/feet for most people compared with arms/hands, etc. makes it more challenging.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:42 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I learned an internal front and side kick. It's kind of like Zhenjin. Very powerful, very fast, but hard to explain...

If you can't explain, you can't teach and you can't write a book about it.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:18 pm

I said it's hard to explain. It's actually quite easy to teach. Whether you are willing to do it is another matter. I disagree that it is challenging to do or that it is somehow less stable. My sidekick scares me it's so powerful. It's like the punch I was doing in that short clip in the motorbike documentary, but on steroids. There is no way I'd ever use it on anyone, even if they wore a chest protector.

It doesn't take any winding up nor is it any slower than a non-internal kick. In fact, it's faster. It's brilliant, honestly. I know how I got it, but there are so many things going on with my body when I do it that it's not as clear as with a punch. There is a sequence of training methods to develop it that is different from the upper body, but the power that is produced feels similar, just stronger, which makes sense given the larger size of the muscles in the lower body.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal punch

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:49 pm

If internal kick is superior than external kick, do you think every MMA fighters will want to learn that? What make internal kick not popular in the MMA world?
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Re: Internal punch

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:05 am

Upper and lower work and move in union , same awareness in the legs as in the arms. XYQ kicks as moving in to (counter)attack, kick to the lower while the opponent occupied/concerned with the upper. Taken by surprise the kick has great effect but internal effect, no I don’t think so.
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