Mix styles

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Mix styles

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:56 pm

I'm a fan of the wide approach.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:44 pm

Her is a good example. Does this turn back kick (at 0.01) exist in Taiji, XY, or Bagua? You may train Taiji all your life, you still won't be able to learn this kick.

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Re: Mix styles

Postby edededed on Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:49 pm

Bagua often is like the wide approach at first (8 methods), but then keeps multiplying the techniques (16, 32, 64, 72, etc.)... ;)

I cannot see YouTube now, but bagua actually has many kicks (72), so there is a good chance that the turning back kick is one of them, too, although it may look slightly different.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:07 pm

edededed wrote:bagua actually has many kicks (72), so there is a good chance that the turning back kick is one of them, too, although it may look slightly different.

IMO, if a technique is not in the forms of that system, it's not in that system.

You may think the turn back kick should exist in a long fist form like this. It doesn't.

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Re: Mix styles

Postby edededed on Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:58 pm

Hmm - some "sets" are just kind of collections of techniques (like 72 qinna). It might be hard to turn that into a form.
For kicks, some kicks do get added to other forms. There are also kicking drills (dancao).

One problem is too many forms often lead to forgetting the complex forms (especially 2-person forms - like 72 kicks). If teacher only remembers 10%, then student can only learn 10%, too :(
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Re: Mix styles

Postby Bhassler on Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:01 pm

windwalker wrote:
Bhassler wrote:
It's not about "purity," it's about everything fitting together such that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Something as simple as weight placement on the foot in foundational stance work can profoundly change everything about the way a person moves. Just grabbing a part from another system that does things differently doesn't work-- someone may come up with something that looks similar or accomplishes the same goal, but it is different. At a superficial level, you can say "so what, if it works?", but when you get to playing at higher levels of force, or with better fighters, or in different environments (street vs sport, etc), then all of a sudden things that didn't make a difference previously can cause failure or get you hurt. I chose my programming example in part because I know John Wang understands computers, so it could be a detailed enough analogy to get the point across, but I also chose it because software works as a system, much like a martial art should. If a person doesn't understand systems thinking at a basic or at least intuitive level, then they don't have the cognitive framework to rationally think about what they're doing when they want to go outside of an existing system and create something new.

If someone just wants to fight, or function in a particular narrow set of circumstances, then it's much easier to mix and match and pick what they want. It takes a broader perspective and actual life experience to understand that success in one tiny area doesn't qualify someone to make generalizations and proclamations about the deeper, broader world.


agree ;)

Mike Staples, a tibetan white crane shifu
http://focusingemptiness.com/index.php/ ... WhiteCrane

summed it up nicely.

“A “narrow” system is one that specifies a particular response for a particular attack. So for every possible attack, there is a specific response. And because there are a great many possible attacks, there are also a great may specific techniques to counter them. With “narrow” systems, you have A LOT of techniques — like the proverbial 108 hand techniques, for instance.

A “wide” system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them. So for instance, you might only have 5 or 6 basic punches… but many “changes” associated with those punches. See also Baqua, with it’s emphasis on changes.

The way to learn how to use a wide system (like White Crane) is then to gain experience with using the limited number of techniques you have available, in a wide assortment of attacks. In other words, you have to use the techniques in sparring… a lot of sparing… so you can learn how a single punch can be used against multiple attack patterns”

Mike Staples


The patterns of fist-fighting take their form according to matching the body, hands and steps. Forms may be different, yet their submission to [their] [N]ature is the same. The sameness, which within itself has some differences, still does not lose its sameness.
In this way the rule of the form is well understood.



CHAPTER 10 Functioning



Everything takes its own particular form before it can function. The function of a thing is intangible, but the effect produced is there. Function arises out of form; therefore, the intangible function is the servant of the form, which is concrete.

A wheel one foot in diameter can cover thousands of miles; this is form in function [i.e. the functioning of form]. Those who are skillful in making use of function do not find the effect in form (but in the function itself). .

https://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-li ... -siu-jong/


If you were to draw a Venn diagram of what Mr. Staples is talking about and what I'm talking about, there would be a little area of overlap and large areas of two circles that don't overlap. Not what I meant at all when talking about a wider perspective, and only a rudimentary view of what constitutes a system.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:29 pm

Bhassler wrote:If you were to draw a Venn diagram of what Mr. Staples is talking about and what I'm talking about, there would be a little area of overlap and large areas of two circles that don't overlap. Not what I meant at all when talking about a wider perspective, and only a rudimentary view of what constitutes a system.


Agreeing with something is not saying its the same.
Mike's, comments were shared referencing a way of looking at different martial systems and their development,
one that I agree with and others seem to understand.

As to the topic at hand, most CMA systems were developed as answers
to problems of their time by exceptional practitioners. The methods
later becoming codified by followers....

With the passing of time the methods
are not updated or re evaluated.

The lack of need/testing that led to the development of
the original methods along with the disconnect between what is trained,
what is used is a problem...for CMA in gen....
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:24 pm

marvin8 wrote:johnwang's list implies certain styles have a better technique.

I will not say that "certain styles have a better technique". I'll say that "certain styles have a better training method".

For example,

- Long fist has better kicking training than Taiji has.
- XingYi has better punching training than long fist has.
- Taiji has better waist training than …
- Bagua has better footwork training than ...
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Re: Mix styles

Postby Bhassler on Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:27 pm

Understood, and I (respectfully) disagree, with both you and Mr. Staples. Mostly I was just clarifying my stance since you quoted me and then prefaced Mr. Staples comments by saying he summed it up nicely.

That said, I don't think any legitimate lineage of MA considers itself a collection of techniques-- most all would say they are principle based, and that practice of techniques is an effective means of illuminating the underlying principles. The key word being "legitimate."

I think the more significant disagreement is in the notion that CMA were developed at one point and then simply preserved without evolution for dozens of generations thereafter. Instead of being a static system, it's likely they started (as you said) as solutions to specific problems, and then at some point as the primitive solutions were developed, somebody understood (or thought they understood) some underlying principles, and then codified that into a system for practicing and teaching those principles in a very practical matter. This marks the beginning of an actual system, and isn't something that's just done by followers at a later date.

Where our views diverge is in what happens with an art from there. Figuring out kung fu is an interesting thing to do, and the systems that developed into full-fledged martial arts had one or more somebodies studying, refining, and adding to that basic knowledge base over decades. At some point, they found someone else who was into that shit and smart enough to do it, and then they inherited the art and spent decades refining and adding onto what went before. There would have been variations, where maybe one generation was not so brilliant intellectually but a great fighter, or someone who was into it but didn't have much real fighting experience, etc., as well as others who interpreted things differently or had different specific needs and broke off into their own systems or sub-systems. But in general, if the system someone today is learning is a *good* system, you're talking about something that is built on multiple decades of experience in both teaching and fighting in a continuous deepening and widening. That's far from a collection of methods that are not "updated or re-evaluated." When looking at a system, it has to be viewed not just philosophically, strategically, tactically, and technically, but also contextually and pedagogically. That's a lot to understand even for someone who's spent many years practicing in a particular system.

Does that mean that someone who creates their own, new system today is full of shit? Not necessarily. But it is very likely that someone with a few years or even a couple of decades of practice is simply not qualified to speak on anyone else's shit when it comes to an actual systems approach to classical MA, regardless of competition or sparring experience. I have friends that I've trained with who have multiple decades of experience and, in some cases, literally hundreds of real world fights with fists, knives, guns, and other nasty things, and not one of them is so arrogant as to think they know all about anyone else's shit. The ones who are interested in such things pretty much universally agree that when you start mixing and matching, it becomes something different that what it started as. If you're really good and experienced, you can get something quite good-- otherwise, you get what you get. Silly games and silly prizes, and all that.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:56 pm

Bhassler wrote:they are principle based, ...

If a system is principle base (or formless), do you think one can learn "flying side kick" from that system?

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Re: Mix styles

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:30 am

The way I see it, traditionally it comes in stages:

1. Learn a form which contains a collection of movements.
2. Learn how those movements can be applied in fighting.
3. Understand the principles underlying those movements.
4. Learn how to apply those principles in fighting
5. Become formless (i.e., not technique-based but principle-based)

Problem with many practitioners is that they try to jump from 1 to 5, which often leads to disastrous results when push comes to shove.....
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Re: Mix styles

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:02 am

johnwang wrote:Image

sent flying by an push
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Re: Mix styles

Postby Bhassler on Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:29 am

johnwang wrote:
Bhassler wrote:they are principle based, ...

If a system is principle base (or formless), do you think one can learn "flying side kick" from that system?


Principle based =/= Formless
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Re: Mix styles

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:01 am

Bhassler wrote:
Principle based =/= Formless



lets see if this is true.

Is this not an example of different principles at work

This characteristic of a wave as an energy transport phenomenon distinguishes waves from other types of phenomenon. Consider a common phenomenon observed at a softball game - the collision of a bat with a ball.

A batter is able to transport energy from her to the softball by means of a bat. The batter applies a force to the bat, thus imparting energy to the bat in the form of kinetic energy. The bat then carries this energy to the softball and transports the energy to the softball upon collision. In this example, a bat is used to transport energy from the player to the softball. However, unlike wave phenomena, this phenomenon involves the transport of matter.


The bat must move from its starting location to the contact location in order to transport energy. In a wave phenomenon, energy can move from one location to another, yet the particles of matter in the medium return to their fixed position. A wave transports its energy without transporting matter.[




would not the differences between the way "energy" is transmitted dictate the method or shape of the form used to transmit it.




A ruler or a pair of compasses can make measurements because each of them has its own particular form.

A form possesses its own nature and thus enables the functioning of itself [by means of the form]. The nature of a pair of scissors is to cut; therefore it takes the form of two blades.

The nature of an axe is to chop; consequently it takes the form of a single edge. All things take their form according to their nature.

A form without its nature is like a ruler without a measurement scale or a weighing machine without its scale, having only their empty forms without [a] functional effect.
[/quote]
https://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-li ... -siu-jong/
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Re: Mix styles

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:04 am

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Those different methods and approaches (e.g., demos, forms) look more similar after getting punched in the face. In MMA, some TMAists evolve to looking similar by necessity (e.g. efficiency, speed, etc)..


Seems only to apply to those who label themselves as CMA artist.
which has been, and is questioned as to why what they trained is not reflected in use.

Further in the case of Chen village fighters, why did they decide what they originally trained (traditional methods) was not enough to compete in fights—adding sanda to their curriculum?

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:johnwang's list implies certain styles have a better technique.

I will not say that "certain styles have a better technique". I'll say that "certain styles have a better training method".

For example,

- Long fist has better kicking training than Taiji has.
- Taiji has better waist training than …
- Bagua has better footwork training than ...
- XingYi has better punching training than long fist has.

Then, I may have misinterpreted you. Ok, some types of kicks are not practiced in Taiji. Can you elaborate on "better training method?"

I believe Bruce Lee's quote:
Before I learned martial arts, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. When I studied martial arts, a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick was no longer just a kick. Now I understand martial arts, and a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.


is not as profound as saying:
A punch is a verb, not a noun and a kick is a verb, not a noun.
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