Mix styles

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Mix styles

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:57 am

marvin8 wrote:
windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Those different methods and approaches (e.g., demos, forms) look more similar after getting punched in the face. In MMA, some TMAists evolve to looking similar by necessity (e.g. efficiency, speed, etc)..


Seems only to apply to those who label themselves as CMA artist.
which has been, and is questioned as to why what they trained is not reflected in use.

Further in the case of Chen village fighters, why did they decide what they originally trained (traditional methods) was not enough to compete in fights—adding sanda to their curriculum?


One would have to ask them why this is so.
IMO, it was a mistake departing from the historical way
CMA validated itself adapting as necessary.

I think they made a business choice, and decided to
preserve the trade mark.

Making it very clear that what was shown "sanda" was not necessarily reflective
of chen style taiji . If they lost it allows them to say its not chen taiji,
if they win, it allows them to say what they did was powered by "chen taiji" ie reflective
of internal training . Which invites the comments about "formlessness" ect :-\

IMO a mistake.

Some teachers use a half and half approach adapting as needed for those wanting to enter into
competition....

for example


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j3Fp3w ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:13 pm

marvin8 wrote:Can you elaborate on "better training method?"

- Baji has power generation drill,
- Preying mantis has speed generation drills,
- Long fist has kicking drill,
- ...

that if you drill it daily, you will get it.

When there is a goal, a path can be presented. IMO, that's better training method.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:48 pm

I totally disagree with Bruce Lee. A punch is not just a punch...
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Re: Mix styles

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:30 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can you elaborate on "better training method?"

- Baji has power generation drill,
- Preying mantis has speed generation drills,
- Long fist has kicking drill,
- ...

that if you drill it daily, you will get it.

When there is a goal, a path can be presented. IMO, that's better training method.

Are you saying other martial arts do not have drills besides Baji, Preying mantis, Long fist, Xing yi, Taiji and Bagua or their's are "better?" If their drills are "better," how so?
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:27 pm

marvin8 wrote: If their drills are "better," how so?

The PM system has "jump in the air, throw 5 hand moves (3 punches, 2 blocks) before feet landing back on the ground". I have not seen such kind of training in any other styles.

In another forum, I have asked people to explain WC power generation method (step by step) and also video. So far I have not seen any text or clip to describe WC power generation in detail yet.

Here is the long fist power generation method. Even a 10 years old can understand it.

1. Drop in a low horse stance and facing north.
2. Straight legs (borrow force from the ground).
3. Rotate body to the left.
4. Punch out right fist while right fist, right shoulder, and left shoulder are all in a perfect straight line (in north-south direction).
5. Repeat 1 - 4 for the left punch.

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Re: Mix styles

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:01 pm

So true about Chenjiagou.. It was actually amongst my reasons for quiting Taijiquan for good. If even the leading figures in your art don't have the confidence to show it in action then it is not an art worth pursuing...
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Re: Mix styles

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:50 am

MaartenSFS wrote:So true about Chenjiagou.. It was actually amongst my reasons for quiting Taijiquan for good. If even the leading figures in your art don't have the confidence to show it in action then it is not an art worth pursuing...


If you look for real fighting skills, the Chen village might not be the best place to go.

Chen is not the only Tai Chi style and Chen village boxing is not representative for all of Chen style.

The village guys have a lot of political pressure. They are supposed to promote Tai Chi as sports and a health art. The government have used Chenjiagou to shape a certain picture of how they believe that Tai Chi should be perceived.

However, there are videos around as knife defense classes that tell me everything I need to know about the village head’s presumed fighting skills... :/ :-[
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Re: Mix styles

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:34 am

The only good stuff I've seen from Chenjiagou is some of their wrestling challenges. I haven't even seen that from the other branches. Only compliant demos or Sanda.. As time goes on they create more and more forms and internal exercises so that it takes a student a lifetime to "exit the gate". What a waste of time...

I need to see this knife defence video! Couldn't find it on Youtube, though..
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:38 am

johnwang wrote:I will not say that "certain styles have a better technique". I'll say that "certain styles have a better training method".

How are you concluding that "certain styles have a better training method?"

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: If their drills are "better," how so?

The PM system has "jump in the air, throw 5 hand moves (3 punches, 2 blocks) before feet landing back on the ground". I have not seen such kind of training in any other styles.

This drill is better at making one faster at doing what? When would one want to "jump in the air" to punch or block in a fight?

Not sure if you are only speaking of CMA styles. However, professional fighters have a variety of training methods to develop speed in punching including equipment (e.g., speed bag, etc), pad work, form, technique, strength & conditioning (e.g., explosiveness, flexibility, balance, mobility), relaxation, eye/hand or foot coordination, etc.

johnwang wrote:In another forum, I have asked people to explain WC power generation method (step by step) and also video. So far I have not seen any text or clip to describe WC power generation in detail yet.

Here is the long fist power generation method. Even a 10 years old can understand it.

1. Drop in a low horse stance and facing north.
2. Straight legs (borrow force from the ground).
3. Rotate body to the left.
4. Punch out right fist while right fist, right shoulder, and left shoulder are all in a perfect straight line (in north-south direction).
5. Repeat 1 - 4 for the left punch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2Vjev- ... e=youtu.be

Why use "'long fist power generation method?" Since per you:
johnwang wrote:- XingYi has better punching training than long fist has.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:52 am

Better training method - if you repeat this drill 1,000 times, you will get it.
Bad training method - if you train those forms for 10 years, you will get it.

How long can you stay in the air? 1 second? If you can make 5 arm moves within 1 second, that means your punching speed is 1/5 second. That's fast. The jump up is just a time stamp to check your punching speed.

Which style has training that require you only see you arm moving like a blur? As far as I know, only PM and Zimen has such training.

Some Baji school (such as Wu Tang) use long fist power generation method.

johnwang wrote:My long fist teacher's teacher Han Ching-Tan always talked about:

- Long fist kick,
- XingYi punch,
- Taiji waist,
- Bagua footwork,

The above was GM Han Ching-Tang's point of view. My point of view is different.

- Long fist basic.
- Baji power.
- Preying mantis speed.
- SC throw.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:45 pm

johnwang wrote:How long can you stay in the air? 1 second? If you can make 5 arm moves within 1 second, that means your punching speed is 1/5 second. That's fast. The jump up is just a time stamp to check your punching speed.

Can you answer my earlier questions?
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote: If their drills are "better," how so?

The PM system has "jump in the air, throw 5 hand moves (3 punches, 2 blocks) before feet landing back on the ground". I have not seen such kind of training in any other styles.

This drill is better at making one faster at doing what? When would one want to "jump in the air" to punch or block in a fight?


johnwang wrote:The above was GM Han Ching-Tang's point of view. My point of view is different.

- Long fist basic.
- Baji power.
- Preying mantis speed.
- SC throw.

Earlier you mentioned "XingYi has better punching training," then gave steps to Long Fist power generation. Which method should one use for punching training: XingYi, Longfist or Baji?

johnwang wrote:I will not say that "certain styles have a better technique". I'll say that "certain styles have a better training method".

For example,

- Long fist has better kicking training than Taiji has.
- XingYi has better punching training than long fist has.
- Taiji has better waist training than …
- Bagua has better footwork training than ...
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:48 pm

No matter how good your CMA skill is, if you have never handled with a wrestler's single leg shooting, you will always experience defeat for the 1st time. You just don't believe that someone can move in with that kind of low stance that your punch cannot land on him. This is why the mix styles and cross training is important.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:56 pm

Q: This drill is better at making one faster at doing what?

A: punch.

Q: When would one want to "jump in the air" to punch or block in a fight?

A: it's just a time stamp.

Q: Earlier you mentioned "XingYi has better punching training," then gave steps to Long Fist power generation. Which method should one use for punching training: XingYi, Longfist or Baji?

A: As far as the punching training:

long fist < Baji < XingYi
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Re: Mix styles

Postby dspyrido on Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:48 pm

johnwang wrote:No matter how good your CMA skill is, if you have never handled with a wrestler's single leg shooting, you will always experience defeat for the 1st time. You just don't believe that someone can move in with that kind of low stance that your punch cannot land on him. This is why the mix styles and cross training is important.


Also to add - you can't really experience a single leg unless it come from someone trained in it. The same goes with good kicks or punches etc.

So mixing styles is not just also about adding refinements or moves but knowing how to handle them when done by someone who is good at them.

The question then is - why learn 4+ styles in CMA? Would learning one style that mixed several styles be the equivalent? Not IMO but I think the answer is due to mixing is not really about styles but about training with different instructors and students.
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Re: Mix styles

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:54 pm

dspyrido wrote:The question then is - why learn 4+ styles in CMA? Would learning one style that mixed several styles be the equivalent?

IMO, 1 major and many minors should be the best approach.
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