Is "internal" real that important?

[windwalker]

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[D_Glenn]

The usual thing that most people attribute to Internal Arts is the inherent ability in us that can be nurtured in order to Ti Fang (uproot and send away) another person with little effort. This actually is something that is found in a lot of Chinese martial arts- Internal and External. It’s actually taught better and more efficiently in some of the external styles than in the so-called Internal arts.

The skill that is only found in the Internal arts is the ability to control muscles, bones and tissues to generate a Zhen Jin (Shock power). That’s the real skill.

Being able to Ti Fang is not indicative of being an Internal Martial art.

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[johnwang]

uproot and send away.

I can understand "uproot". But why "send away" is so important in internal art?

Being able to Ti Fang is not indicative of being an Internal Martial art.

Is body sensitivity part of the internal training?

- Taiji push hand can train the arm sensitivity.
- Shin bite can train the leg/foot sensitivity.

IMO, the leg/foot sensitivity is as important as the arm sensitivity. When you put your inner edge behind your opponent's ankle, you need to sense your opponent's intention. You then decide how to borrow his force.

[D_Glenn]

uproot and send away.

I can understand "uproot". But why "send away" is so important in internal art?

It came from friendly exchanges of skill. The character is 放 Fang, so that could be ‘let them free’.

There needs to be two categories:
1) real Internal arts (training for fighting people who aren’t your friends and learning how to add in a Zhen Jin to your strikes or throws.)

2) pseudo Internal arts (people who focus on friendly exchanges of testing each other’s ability to root.)

Being able to Ti Fang is not indicative of being an Internal Martial art.

Is body sensitivity part of the internal training?

- Taiji push hand can train the arm sensitivity.
- Shin bite can train the leg/foot sensitivity.

IMO, the leg/foot sensitivity is as important as the arm sensitivity. When you put your inner edge behind your opponent's ankle, you need to sense your opponent's intention. You then decide how to borrow his force.

As you say, all types of two-person drills are in all various arts.

As I’ve said before on here: What really develops Ting Li and Dong Li, is Standing/ Zhan Zhuang Practices.
Two-Person sensitivity training only practices the Listening and Knowing (Power) skills that you have already built.

Zhan Zhuang isn’t necessarily Internal either. So Ting and DongLi don’t really define the difference between Internal and External.

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[Trick]

To practice with an “conscious control over muscle groups” - is as external as any external practice.
As strange as it may sound focus on parts within ones own body is not internal martial arts practice, ......it’s not even martial arts practice.
However correct internal martial arts practice makes one aware of ones body as it takes on specific shapes, but not partly but as an greater whole. Although I can see the trap here that probably many falls for, that is that this awareness if one is not careful might turn into an distinct obsessive focus.
Internal martial arts practice first hand aim to develop ones mind/body awareness to deal accordingly with ones immediately overall surroundings(omnipresent awareness), this can not be achieved by focusing on ones own body/presence.

“Some people say that the real internal practice is about training the mind”

Internal MA’s practice(solo practice)visualizes external circumstances to act upon, this omnipresently directly fine tunes ones neural system which eventually develops an delicate mind/body sensitivity so to correctly act in real life situations.

What’s also seem ‘controversial’ to some/many is that correct internal martial arts practice should not leave the practitioner in a state of being out of breath, one should not even break a sweat even if practice for long hours. If such things happens one are still at the external levels of things and should practice harder(softer) to come to the correct understanding.
But of course if the practitioner want to stay at the external levels because it makes them feel good and provides the results they has sat aim for then it’s nothing wrong with that.
So as an answer to the OP question, no the ‘internal’ in that case is not needed(8-)

Merry Christmas everyone!

[windwalker]

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[dspyrido]

I heard somewhere that Thai Muay Thai fighters are always far superior to any foreigners that practice Muay Thai. You say yourself that you believe that they are not teaching the foreigners everything they know, and I believe that that is probably the case.

I also believe that what they are not teaching is all the internal stuff, particularly the energy (sen or chi) related stuff, the equivalent of martial chi kung for Chinese martial arts. Every traditional martial art that comes from asia, has its spiritual, chi kung and meditative side. And in every one of them it is claimed that it is these aspects of the art that give fighters real power.

I can see no reason why would Muay Thai be the only exception to this rule. If Muay Thai had only mechanical, purely physical aspects, then westerners with their constitution and the availability of superior training methods and their understanding of the body mechanics should be winning hands down. But the opposite is the case.

That's exactly the unfounded mystical mumbo jumbo that lead to the over promotion of "internal" as something superior. The logic is "I don't get it so the reason must be something I've heard".

MT in Thailand for many years was superior in Thailand because

1. Initially they did have a superior technique & training method in fast low kicks combined with tough tough conditioning
2. The kru lead stables where trainers trained & tested themselves generationally
3. The selection criteria was the best of the best - the weakest where weeded out

The result is Thai's would have amazing constitution & technical ability with 100s of fights even before they turned 18.

Guess what happened when the westerners came up to speed on the techniques & training methods? They started to challenge them. No need for spirit or chi or acts of god.

Interestingly the transition of the same thai's into the MMA circuit has proven to be a reversal. The thai's didn't have the same training camps & hence they didn't have as much success until they started to also emulate other (some might say "western") training methods evolving to include more wider throwing & submission methods.

[dspyrido]

Internal vs. External

1. The training must be different or else why have a distinction
2. The application of skill learnt from this training must be different or else why have a distinction
3. The idea of internal vs. external cannot be 100% one of the other - philosophically & logically both camps are trained. The difference in a style is where the focus is.

I won't go through the training methods because that is a mile long but on application the distinction is not so complex.

Internal = hidden, hard to see -> hard to understand how it was done
External = visible, easy to see -> easy to understand how it was done

Striking: a punch that hurts someone that ends up with people saying - where did that come from? How did that work? We've posted enough on this topic already.

Defences against strikes: Fist heads towards face. Arm is in the way. Fist drives in and just glances off with no obvious movement from the defender & without having to muscle up & clench up. Bystanders are saying ... how did that happen? How does it work?

Throws: Opponent grabs and tries to hip throw - defender is standing there and the thrower tries but nothing happens. They try again with more effort ... and they don't seem to get their balance. The defender is hardly moving. How did this happen? How does it work?

Throwing someone: The thrower tries to throw. They can't get it so they end up really forcing it only to find out somehow they ended up being tripped or falling over & losing balance. The "internal" defender did not seem to do much movement. How did this happen? How does it work?

It's clear the effects of good internal should be there but the visible application of them is not so clear.

And to reinforce the point - internal does not exist without external. Trying to learn one aspect without the other is nonsense. I even think trying to learn from inside out (internal first) is also the wrong way to go but that's because every CMA/IMA guy I've known all had a solid external foundation before going refined. Also the so called internal masters who get mopped up by guys like Xu are good examples of people who really don't get the importance of the blend.

[C.J.W.]

I have a feeling this thread is going to end up in BTDT pretty soon!

Anyway, to answer the OP's question: No, internal is not really important if all you are interested in is being able to fight.

External training will teach you how to fight much faster and, when combined with athleticism, actually make for quite an effective blend.

What internal training offers, from my point of view, is REFINEMENT.

[windwalker]

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[johnwang]

I have a feeling this thread is going to end up in BTDT pretty soon!

The external training is very clear and easy to understand. If you want to train "踢 (Ti) – Sweep", you can just follow the following training sequence.

1. 咬 (Yao) – Bite
2. 耙 (Pa) – horizontal Scoop
3. 粘 (Zhan) – Sticky kick
4. 撮 (Cuo) - 45 degree upward scoop
5. 踢 (Ti) – Sweep

Does internal training can be written down as simple as this?

[C.J.W.]

The external training is very clear and easy to understand. If you want to train "踢 (Ti) – Sweep", you can just follow the following training sequence.

1. 咬 (Yao) – Bite
2. 耙 (Pa) – horizontal Scoop
3. 粘 (Zhan) – Sticky kick
4. 撮 (Cuo) - 45 degree upward scoop
5. 踢 (Ti) – Sweep

Does internal training can be written down as simple as this?

Internal training can be simple and straightforward if you are lucky enough to learn from teachers who know what they are doing and, more importantly, willing to share their knowledge without holding back.

[johnwang]

Internal training can be simple and straightforward if you are lucky enough to learn from teachers who know what they are doing and, more importantly, willing to share their knowledge without holding back.

You have made some assumption.

1. Internal foot sweep is simple and straightforward - We should discuss this in more detail.
2. There is someone on earth who know this secret - I gave up that search long time ago.
3. Not sure that person is willing to share this secret to the public - This "I have secret but I won't tell you" bother me the most.

[C.J.W.]

You have made some assumption.

1. Internal foot sweep is simple and straightforward - We should discuss this in more detail.
2. There is someone on earth who know this secret - I gave up that search long time ago.
3. Not sure that person is willing to share this secret to the public - This "I have secret but I won't tell you" bother me the most.

Maybe it's because you've been searching in the wrong places, asking the wrong people, and -- most importantly -- doing it with the wrong attitude.

IMO, It's not so much about "I have the information but I won't tell you," but more like "Why should I give you the information I have worked so hard to get when you don't even respect or believe in what I do?"

As for "internal foot sweeps," here's a little test:

1. Stand in a high horse stance with your weight evenly distributed on both legs.
2. Lift one leg up -- WITHOUT shifting your weight or allowing your center axis to move AT ALL.

Can you do it?

[johnwang]

"Why should I give you the information I have worked so hard to get when you don't even respect or believe in what I do?"

You are right! We should not share information online that we all spent a lot of money, time, and effort to obtain it.