Is "internal" real that important?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:19 pm

johnwang wrote:
Dmitri wrote:there are countless ways to learn how to fight very effectively without ever even hearing about "internal training" in the first place.

This is the main discussion point. If fighting is your goal, will you take the "internal" path? If you can sweep everybody down on this planet, do you care about whether your foot sweep is "internal" or not?

If you learn from a good teacher that doesn't waste your time then why not learn how to generate power in a way that almost no one else can, that doesn't require a wind up, that can be used from any angle, backwards or forwards, that does grievous damage to your opponent, that will only improve with age, not deteriorate? WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT THAT, JOHN???
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:38 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Dmitri wrote:there are countless ways to learn how to fight very effectively without ever even hearing about "internal training" in the first place.

This is the main discussion point. If fighting is your goal, will you take the "internal" path? If you can sweep everybody down on this planet, do you care about whether your foot sweep is "internal" or not?

If you learn from a good teacher that doesn't waste your time then why not learn how to generate power in a way that almost no one else can, that doesn't require a wind up, that can be used from any angle, backwards or forwards, that does grievous damage to your opponent, that will only improve with age, not deteriorate? WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT THAT, JOHN???

External fighting doesn't require a "wind up" and can be used from any angle, backwards or forwards. Often, they use waist power at close range.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjlVa_-6Taw

johnwang wrote:
Dmitri wrote:there are countless ways to learn how to fight very effectively without ever even hearing about "internal training" in the first place.

This is the main discussion point. If fighting is your goal, will you take the "internal" path?

Can anyone post a video of an "internal" path fighter fighting while showing a difference (e.g., shenfa, power, etc) between a good external fighter?
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:18 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:If you learn from a good teacher that doesn't waste your time then why not learn how to generate power in a way that almost no one else can, that doesn't require a wind up, that can be used from any angle, backwards or forwards, that does grievous damage to your opponent, that will only improve with age, not deteriorate? WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT THAT, JOHN???

When you say "no wind up", you just say "to hide preparation in the previous step". Let's take the "leg spring" as an example.

You can do it with "no wind up". This will take you 2 steps.

1. Put your foot at the right position (this is the wind up. It's just hidden as the previous move).
2. Spring your leg by moving from flat foot to heel up (this is like 0 distance punch).

If we ignore step 1, this "internal spring" is very impressive. If we include step 1, this "internal spring" is too slow to be effective in combat.



You can also do it with "wind up". This is 1 step process. You combine your step 1 and step 2 into just 1 step. Anything in your path will be bounced away by your leg spring.



Which way is better? IMO, 1 step is always better than 2 steps.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:25 pm

MaartenSFS wrote: that doesn't require a wind up,

If I move my feet inch by inch until my fist is 1 inch away from your chest, I then punch out. that punch look impressive (almost 0 distance and no wind up). You may just forget the preparation of "my feet move inch by inch" to set it up. If I always have to think about 2 steps process, my punch won't work in a true fighting.

IMO, to "create the 0 distance" situation is "wind up".
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:38 pm

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote: that doesn't require a wind up,

If I move my feet inch by inch until my fist is 1 inch away from your chest, I then punch out. that punch look impressive (almost 0 distance and no wind up). You may just forget the preparation of "my feet move inch by inch" to set it up. If I always have to think about 2 steps process, my punch won't work in a true fighting.

IMO, to "create the 0 distance" situation is "wind up".

In close range, "external" fighters tend to control their opponent with trapping, framing, clinch, wrist grabs, head control, trip, throw, grapple, etc. which can be more effective than just punching.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:21 pm

marvin8 wrote:In close range, "external" fighters tend to control their opponent with trapping, framing, clinch, wrist grabs, head control, trip, throw, grapple, etc. which can be more effective than just punching.

Here is the difference.

1. External punch - you punch from 1 foot distance away from your opponent.
2. Internal punch - you punch from 3 inch distance away from your opponent. This means your punch will have "no momentum" between 1 ft and 3 inch. It's easy for your opponent to deal with your punching arm in that range.

It's just like this 2 step "leg spring". When you put your leg between your opponent's legs and before you generate your 0 distance power, your leg has no threaten to your opponent and your opponent can do a lot to you.

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:28 pm

Before you can apply your 0 distance punch, you have to move your hand at the 0 distance position. When you do that, since you have not generated any punching power yet, your arm has no threaten to your opponent. It's easier for your opponent to deal with your arm at that moment.

People may say that 0 distance punch has "no wind up". But to move your hand to the 0 distance position is the wind up.

What's your opinion on this?
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Dmitri on Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:15 pm

With your arm close to the target without perceived threat, the opponent will feel safe and won't feel like they need to worry about that arm hitting them, assuming it can only grapple, when in such close range. That is a huge tactical advantage, if you can use it. The difference between that and "wind-up" is that the latter is telegraphing your intent, while with the former you may have an option to strike from an unexpected angle without them being aware of that possibility.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Dmitri on Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:24 pm

johnwang wrote:
Dmitri wrote:there are countless ways to learn how to fight very effectively without ever even hearing about "internal training" in the first place.

This is the main discussion point. If fighting is your goal, will you take the "internal" path? If you can sweep everybody down on this planet, do you care about whether your foot sweep is "internal" or not?

Whichever sweep is of better quality is the one we should obviously care about. Internal practice presumably results in higher-quality and more powerful movement with less telegraphing and more stability.
The real question is that, since both the internal development and "fighting training" take time, how do you split your training time between the two?
Everyone had their own answer to that question, and there isn't a right or wrong one; just personal preferences, depending on a variety of factors.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:11 pm

Dmitri wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Dmitri wrote:there are countless ways to learn how to fight very effectively without ever even hearing about "internal training" in the first place.

This is the main discussion point. If fighting is your goal, will you take the "internal" path? If you can sweep everybody down on this planet, do you care about whether your foot sweep is "internal" or not?

Whichever sweep is of better quality is the one we should obviously care about. Internal practice presumably results in higher-quality and more powerful movement with less telegraphing and more stability.
The real question is that, since both the internal development and "fighting training" take time, how do you split your training time between the two?
Everyone had their own answer to that question, and there isn't a right or wrong one; just personal preferences, depending on a variety of factors.

Can you provide a video of a fighter in competition doing an "internal" foot sweep that is more powerful with less telegraphing and more stability than a shuai chiao practitioner's or judoka's?
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:57 pm

Dmitri wrote:Whichever sweep is of better quality is the one we should obviously care about. Internal practice presumably results in higher-quality and more powerful movement with less telegraphing and more stability.

Since I have not seen, or heard any "internal" guy who trains "shin bite" (0 distance sweep, no wind up), I have to strongly disagree with you on this.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Trick on Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:10 am

Bhassler wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Based on what people on these forums have described I believe that no more than a handful of them have this skill or have even experienced it.


Or maybe they have literally decades more experience than you and aren't as easily impressed.

Already back in the 80’s I through the karate practice I was doing then could make ‘opponents’ feel internal and of course more often external pain.
Ok, this was easily done in the ‘pre arranged’ sparring methods that is part of most traditional Karate styles, in free sparring there where mostly external bruises and knock downs(sometimes)
With an regular karate reverse punch to the midsection, with regular I mean with correct Kime(fajing the Karate way), and let the punching fist do just a little more than skin touch impact I had class mates had to stop training for some weeks due to internal uncomfortness, one never came back to practice.
Afterward I was and has been very sorry for this, I didn’t really know what I was actually doing, the practice at the school was supposed to be though and competitive....I eventually grew tired of all the machismo and left.

However, what I want to say, the so called internal punch is as well harnessed by ‘external’ practice.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:38 am

johnwang wrote:This is the main discussion point. If fighting is your goal, will you take the "internal" path? If you can sweep everybody down on this planet, do you care about whether your foot sweep is "internal" or not?


You ask two questions
1. Is "internal" important vs.
2. would you take an "internal" path to learn to fight

As mentioned before - external/internal really always get trained and can't be separated. One cannot exist without the other. The difference is the focus - should it be external first & then internal? Is external enough & why bother with internal? Or focus on internal and go external?

IMO for fighting ....

I don't believe training should start by focusing on internal. I believe it is best to start with an external focus and then evolve to internal with refinement. That's how I learnt it & how I would teach it. Why? I have never met a beginner who can get the subtle concepts of internal where as it is easier to tell someone to punch with their left or right hand.

The question is at some point do you just keep doing "external" or do you focus on "internal"? At some point to get a further refinement I believe it is necessary to explore more internal. Kicking a tree 1000 times will produce great results. Focusing in on the "internal" on how to do it more optimally will make it go even further.

Examples ... (& here I say external/internal meaning the focus required to train the area):

Short distance hit requires an bigger setup up to get into range. External -> Internal

A deflection of a incoming punch can be a big move or a move where you just get your arm in the way and the structure deflects the incoming fist (or even better - it damages the incoming arm). External -> Internal.

The opponent tries to hip throw me only to be met with a base that sinks a little lower and the torso locks in upright making it hard for them to throw me and means they over-commit. Result they get easily countered. External -> Internal -> External

If I did intense external training do I feel I would win more? Yes.
If I did intense internal training do I feel I would win more? Less likely but maybe.
If I did intense external & internal training do I feel I would win more? Definitely more than the other 2.

Others might say internal is more important but every good cma master I have met trained intense external and refined with internal.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:56 am

Dmitri wrote:With your arm close to the target without perceived threat, the opponent will feel safe and won't feel like they need to worry about that arm hitting them, assuming it can only grapple, when in such close range. That is a huge tactical advantage, if you can use it. The difference between that and "wind-up" is that the latter is telegraphing your intent, while with the former you may have an option to strike from an unexpected angle without them being aware of that possibility.


Here Cormier uses the left long guard to close the line of attack of Miocic's right hand, parries the left jab, enters, head wraps, limp arms Miocic's underhook and finishes unexpectedly with a right hook, all within close range as explained in the posted "How to fight on the inside" video. Do you have a fight video of a fighter using "internal" punch to knockout an opponent at close range?

Image
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:32 am

Internal training still requires technique training. A good Internal fighter needs to be able to fight normally.

Internal training in Baguazhang is mixed into the normal training to fight. There’s no supplementary training. Everything in it is geared towards fighting (well in the Xie Peiqi lineage that is, can’t say that’s true in other styles).

But what the Internal training adds is what’s behind the hit (chongji). What’s contained within that contact of flesh on flesh, bone on bone. My teacher, 79 years old at the time, 5’5”, maybe 120lbs, could break the bones of your forearm on first contact/ intercept as you were trying to hit him. If you’re were trying to throw him, he could drop his hip down and break your femur. Of course he could only demonstrate this power in a contained or controlled manner, and it was obvious he was holding back, but he still left you with a bone bruise that would haunt you for weeks.

Cultivation is the key. But done at the same time as you’re training fighting techniques. Killing two eagles with one arrow. With proper cultivation though, even at an old age, you may only need one technique to finish the fight.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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