Is "internal" real that important?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:23 pm

D_Glenn wrote:Internal training still requires technique training.

Agree with you 100% there. Some people may say that internal training is formless. I just don't know how can one internal guy be able to figure out how to do a hip throw if his training is formless.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Dmitri on Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:44 pm

johnwang wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Internal training still requires technique training.

Agree with you 100% there. Some people may say that internal training is formless. I just don't know how can one internal guy be able to figure out how to do a hip throw if his training is formless.

He can't, that's the point I was trying to make... Oh well. BTDT :)
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:01 am

johnwang wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:Internal training still requires technique training.

Agree with you 100% there. Some people may say that internal training is formless. I just don't know how can one internal guy be able to figure out how to do a hip throw if his training is formless.

In fighting, one should be able to adjust (change) to the situation, be formless. If the opponent moves backwards, do not use hip throw (forward throw). Use a throw in the direction the opponent is moving (e.g., osoto gari, ouchi gari). Fighting is not about any one technique or combination. It's about understanding the opponent's energy and doing what is appropriate in the moment. Don't box a boxer or grapple with a grappler.

"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash! Be water, my friend." —Bruce Lee
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:37 am

Last edited by Taste of Death on Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Bao on Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:24 pm

"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash! Be water, my friend." —Bruce Lee


Here he just put together old stuff, nothing new in what he said. Also, he confuses "Shapelessness" with "No Mind", which are two different things.
...But at least this video is entertaining, feels fresh and fun, sort of...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EygqL--RW4

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:20 pm

Bao wrote:
"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash! Be water, my friend." —Bruce Lee


Here he just put together old stuff, nothing new in what he said. Also, he confuses "Shapelessness" with "No Mind", which are two different things.
...But at least this video is entertaining, feels fresh and fun, sort of...



yep,,,good catch...most dont really follow it, they themselves not fromless and have mind.

but sounds cool,,, :-\ a better understanding might be arrived at through

"Form is empty, emptiness is form."

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Give up thinking as though not giving it up. Observe techniques as though not observing.

When you are completely aware, there is no space for a conception, a scheme, “the opponent and I;” there is complete abandonment~Bruce Lee

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:34 pm

I have an idea; we should start a new forum about internal martial arts where 90% of the members have never seen, much less done, internal martial arts. They should also constantly question their validity whilst simultaneously also posing as experts on the subject! Speaking of subjects, there should be no more than ten in total and they should be recycled every fortnight. If a thread veers off-topic, any attempt necessary should be made to steer it back on this broken course! Oh my, what a success it will be!
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:33 pm

Bao wrote:
"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow, or it can crash! Be water, my friend." —Bruce Lee


Here he just put together old stuff, nothing new in what he said.

Right. Bruce is philosophizing. He didn't claim it was new. I included Bruce's quote at the end because one can research the various interpretations of Bruce's meaning of "formless."

marvin8 wrote:Fighting is not about any one technique or combination. It's about understanding the opponent's energy and doing what is appropriate in the moment.

The concept of understanding the opponent's energy and transforming it is repeated here:

Excerpt from "Jin in Taiji Quan:"
Zhang Yun wrote:4. Using jin in pushing hands and fighting

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone.
The complete process consists of five steps:
1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force,
3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
4. Nia - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and
5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.


Bao wrote:Also, he confuses "Shapelessness" with "No Mind", which are two different things.
...But at least this video is entertaining, feels fresh and fun, sort of...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EygqL--RW4

Where did Bruce confuse "Shapelessness" and "No Mind?" Empty your mind, (and) be formless, (and) shapeless — like water.

MaartenSFS wrote:If a thread veers off-topic, any attempt necessary should be made to steer it back on this broken course!

How did the "thread veer off-topic" when the thread starter brought up the subject of "formless training?"
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby ctjla on Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:50 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I have an idea; we should start a new forum about internal martial arts where 90% of the members have never seen, much less done, internal martial arts. They should also constantly question their validity whilst simultaneously also posing as experts on the subject! Speaking of subjects, there should be no more than ten in total and they should be recycled every fortnight. If a thread veers off-topic, any attempt necessary should be made to steer it back on this broken course! Oh my, what a success it will be!


Awesome.

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:07 am

marvin8 wrote:In fighting, one should be able to adjust (change) to the situation, ...

I prefer to create the situation instead of to adjust the situation. For example, I like to attack my opponent when he has left side forward and when I have right side forward. What if he gives me his right side forward? I will use fake move to force him to switch sides. I then attack him. Too complicate? I want to make sure that I have the most advantage to start with.

If your right hand has more knock down power than your left hand has, you will create your right hand punch opportunity even if your opponent may give you left hand punch opportunity.

formless -> you are good on both sides and you are good on all techniques.

In reality, this is very difficult (if not impossible) to achieve.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:25 am

Can your

- left hand punch as hard as your right hand?
- left leg kick as hard as your right leg?
- left hip throw be as good as your right hip throw?
- single leg be as good as your double legs?
- ...

If any of your above answer is "no", you may think that you are formless, but you are not.

The opportunity is given to those who is prepared. Unfortunately, some opportunity we can catch. Some opportunities we cannot.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:41 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In fighting, one should be able to adjust (change) to the situation, ...

I prefer to create the situation instead of to adjust the situation.

For example, if your right hand has more knock down power than your left hand has, you will create your right hand punch opportunity even if your opponent may give you left hand punch opportunity.

Right. But, your opponent may have different answers (reactions) to your asking hand (creating).

The opponent may open himself up moving to the left or right. You don't know which one until it happens. From orthodox, you should train both left hook and right hand. If you only use the right hand (one handed), you are predictable (showing patterns). Threatening with both hands will open more opportunities for the opponent to show weaknesses.

johnwang wrote:formless -> you are good on both sides and you are good on all techniques.

In reality, this is very difficult (if not impossible) to achieve.

As in my previous example, one should train both forward throws and backwards throws not knowing how the opponent will react. Sports fighters train various weapons (e.g., both hands, multiple throw directions) by necessity, even if they have their favorite techniques. This fits in with Bruce Lee's (JKD) and Zhang Yun's (tai chi) strategy.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:13 am

John,

Although we've never met in person, we've known each other on this forum for nearly 20 years. And I can't help but notice that during this whole entire time, your topics of discussion regarding the internals have always (and I really, really, really mean ALWAYS) revolved around a limited number repeatedly occurring ideas:

1. Taiji guys only know how to push people away.
2. Taiji guys should learn how to use their legs like Shuaijiao guys.
3. There is nothing special about internal arts; Shuaijiao is just as good if not better.

It also seems to me that no matter how much time and effort other forum members have spent on discussing these topics with you, your way of thinking and understanding about internal arts -- based on your posts and responses -- still remain exactly the same as they were 20 years ago.

So I am just wondering why you even bother to keep bringing these topics up if you already have your own deeply held belief about Taiji and internal arts?
Last edited by C.J.W. on Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:33 pm

C.J.W. wrote:John,

Although we've never met in person, we've known each other on this forum for nearly 20 years. And I can't help but notice that during this whole entire time, your topics of discussion regarding the internals have always (and I really, really, really mean ALWAYS) revolved around a limited number repeatedly occurring ideas:

1. Taiji guys only know how to push people away.
2. Taiji guys should learn how to use their legs like Shuaijiao guys.
3. There is nothing special about internal arts; Shuaijiao is just as good if not better.

It also seems to me that no matter how much time and effort other forum members have spent on discussing these topics with you, your way of thinking and understanding about internal arts -- based on your posts and responses -- still remain exactly the same as they were 20 years ago.

So I am just wondering why you even bother to keep bringing these topics up if you already have your own deeply held belief about Taiji and internal arts?

In the past 20 years, I hope something could happen and changed my belief (such as one "internal" guy had proved his "internal" skill in the ring or on the mat).

Even just 10 years ago, I still believed that CMA doesn't need ground game, In the past 5 years, my opinion has completed changed.

It's not that I will never change. I just need enough proof to convince myself.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:49 pm

C.J.W. wrote:2. Taiji guys should learn how to use their legs like Shuaijiao guys.

Trick wrote:But bkts is a throw similar to your avatar throw........

The difference between the Taiji "brush knee" and SC "leg blocking" is the leg skill.

This discussion hasn't changed in the past 20 years.

I believe the leg skill such as to use your right leg to hook your opponent's

1st side - outside right leg.
2nd side - inside right leg.
3rd side - inside left leg.
4th side - outside left leg.

should be trained in all CMA systems. It's such important and simple concept but missing in almost all CMA systems.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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