Is "internal" real that important?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:55 pm

- You want to be good in leg skill (such as foot sweep).
- Since your "internal" teacher doesn't train that, he doesn't know how to help you.
- You go to another external teacher who can help you.
- You lose confidence in your "internal" teacher.


If I liked throwing and sweeps I would probably choose to practice Shuaijiao instead. But I do have full confidence in internal arts and have no interest in this kind of sweep or similar methods.

All teachers are specialized, have their own limitations and so. And students should find their own talents and interests within the martial arts IMO. Some people find their own strengths in the external arts, others find it in the internal arts. One thing is just as good as the other as long as you follow your heart and find joy in what you do. My own humble opinion only.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:57 pm

Bao wrote: If I liked throwing and sweeps I would probably choose to practice Shuaijiao instead.

Foot sweep exists in many external CMA system (such as long fist, preying mantis, …). In your opinion, why it's not emphasized in "internal" CMA?

Sometime I truly don't know what an average "internal" guy trying to develop through his life time. Is power generation? But power generation is not a master key that can open all locks.

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Taste of Death on Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:14 am

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote: If I liked throwing and sweeps I would probably choose to practice Shuaijiao instead.

Foot sweep exists in many external CMA system (such as long fist, preying mantis, …). In your opinion, why it's not emphasized in "internal" CMA?

Sometime I truly don't know what an average "internal" guy trying to develop through his life time. Is power generation? But power generation is not a master key that can open all locks.

Image


Martial arts is about doing a few things well. If foot sweeps are your thing then practice the hell out of them. If you train with someone who continually sweeps you and you have no defense for it then add it to your training. Internals are about body conditioning. There is no moratorium on foot sweeping. Most prefer to attack the lead leg by kicking it or stomping the foot or ankle rather than sweeping it.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:03 am

Taste of Death wrote:Most prefer to attack the lead leg by kicking it or stomping the foot or ankle rather than sweeping it.


This is the group I belong to. Kicking, stomping, preferably the knee or just below it. then follow up immediately or attack simultaneously. It's faster to follow up when a person is still standing and somewhat upright compared to someone on the ground. IME. This is a difference between sports and real combat. Sweeping might be a great skill to know, but in real life you shouldn't even consider losing control of, or contact with, the opponent until you have have finished him or have good control over him or over the situation in general, IMO.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:09 am

johnwang wrote:In your opinion, why it's not emphasized in "internal" CMA?


Because they were not developed as sports, but are derived from battle and military strategies and tactics. In sports you can throw away or sweep your opponent and win. But in combat you cannot lose contact with the opponent until you have finished him. Pushing away people as seen in tai chi is a mistake as well and for practice only. Sweeping in general though is probably a much more useful skill than "pushing".
Last edited by Bao on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:15 am

Bao - I'd like to know where you get this complete confidence in your art from? I'm genuinely curious. Is there some objective judgement being made here, or is it just subjective? When you talk about "finishing" people, how many people have you "finished" in real life with your deadly leg attacks?

For full disclosure, I've never "finished" anybody in real life myself.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Bao on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:36 am

GrahamB wrote:Bao - I'd like to know where you get this complete confidence in your art from? I'm genuinely curious. Is there some objective judgement being made here, or is it just subjective? When you talk about "finishing" people, how many people have you "finished" in real life with your deadly leg attacks?

For full disclosure, I've never "finished" anybody in real life myself.


Trolling Graham or what? :-\

I haven't written anything about "deadly" leg attacks, but only about using them as a set-up. I also wrote: "in real life you shouldn't even consider losing control of, or contact with, the opponent until you have have finished him or have good control over him or over the situation in general, IMO." I also wrote about it in general terms and not about what I have done or not, so you might need to read the posts again.

And yes, I have full confidence in my art.

If it's actually some kind of conversation you want, please return when you can restrain yourself from acting like a dick. ;)
... but I guess that's a bit too much to hope for ... :P
Last edited by Bao on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:59 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:02 am

Ok then, but I was asking a genuine question. Might want to ask yourself who the dick really is :P
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:54 am

Bao wrote:This is the group I belong to. Kicking, stomping, preferably the knee or just below it. then follow up immediately or attack simultaneously. ...

This is a difference between sports and real combat. ...

Because they were not developed as sports, but are derived from battle and military strategies and tactics. In sports you can throw away or sweep your opponent and win.

No, it's not a "difference." Combat sports (external) does knee or just below it kicking and stomping (e.g., oblique, side, roundhouse kick) too. Just saying it's different (not just you/kicking) even if it was, does not answer johnwang's unanswered question(s) is why I bring it up. Can you answer:
johnwang wrote:- When you are in skill development stage, what will you do anything different if you are an "internal" guy?
- Can you use external way to raise your level? ...

The issue is how can an "internal" guy make kicking, stomping solo training more "internal"? If you are an "internal" CMA teacher, how will you teach this kicking, stomping solo drill any different (from external)?


My questions went unanswered too:
marvin8 wrote:... And, how is this "internal" hip throw "better, non-telegraphic, more power, higher quality, more relaxed, etc.?" (Not vague but more specific details.):

marvin8 wrote:Can anyone answer johnwang's questions, explain the different attributes from external, etc. using this "internal" hip throw clip as an example?

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:54 am

gives examples and explanation between differences of force applications
makes distinctions between "internal" and "external" applications using the same
posture


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4LATKywaCI

Interesting take on "single whip"
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:56 pm

Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:In your opinion, why it's not emphasized in "internal" CMA?
Because they were not developed as sports, but are derived from battle and military strategies and tactics. In sports you can throw away or sweep your opponent and win. But in combat you cannot lose contact with the opponent until you have finished him. Pushing away people as seen in tai chi is a mistake as well and for practice only. Sweeping in general though is probably a much more useful skill than "pushing".

In the ancient battle field, soldier had heavy armor on. If you sweep your opponent down, he may not be able to get back up again.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby ctjla on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:01 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Bao wrote:This is the group I belong to. Kicking, stomping, preferably the knee or just below it. then follow up immediately or attack simultaneously. ...

This is a difference between sports and real combat. ...

Because they were not developed as sports, but are derived from battle and military strategies and tactics. In sports you can throw away or sweep your opponent and win.

No, it's not a "difference." Combat sports (external) does knee or just below it kicking and stomping (e.g., oblique, side, roundhouse kick) too. Just saying it's different (not just you/kicking) even if it was, does not answer johnwang's unanswered question(s) is why I bring it up. Can you answer:
johnwang wrote:- When you are in skill development stage, what will you do anything different if you are an "internal" guy?
- Can you use external way to raise your level? ...

The issue is how can an "internal" guy make kicking, stomping solo training more "internal"? If you are an "internal" CMA teacher, how will you teach this kicking, stomping solo drill any different (from external)?


My questions went unanswered too:

marvin8 wrote:... And, how is this "internal" hip throw "better, non-telegraphic, more power, higher quality, more relaxed, etc.?" (Not vague but more specific details.):

marvin8 wrote:Can anyone answer johnwang's questions, explain the different attributes from external, etc. using this "internal" hip throw clip as an example?

Image


There is a lot to read here and so I may have missed something. It does seem that a lot of answers and perspectives have been offered up in this thread that just get met with more questions...almost like we're driving to something?

This makes me think that the question on the above throw didn't go unanswered, it was just covered in the context of some other examples where concepts like rotational and linear opposing power sources, Hong Jungsheng's grinding application of silk reeling, etc. were brought up.

Focusing on being more analytical and looking at the above throw -- I believe that's a fairly recognizable name so there's probably a lot of expectation... but I don't really see a lot of internal mechanics in that throw except for some fairly subtle but effective leg bowing at the end.

I did have a chance to take a private push hands lesson with Chen Bing a couple of years ago and his metaphor for the internal was the light switch. He kept walking to the corner of the room and flicking the lights on and off to emphasize the idea that it was the instantaneous recruitment of the entire body in coordination that was critical. Appreciate him sticking to the point until he got his idea across.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Bob on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:04 pm

Internal or External? If I can transpose bagua linear forms into the circle or the circle into a linear form, what constitutes its internal/external characteristics? The training? Breath work? If I train the linear forms without the circular form does it make a difference?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bebtsim ... re=related

Bagua Leg Linear (you can also put it into a circular pattern too)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=232isK6v3FM

Ying Shou Linear



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYQOLWeS30Y

Parts of Xiao Kai Men and Ying Shou circular



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIrLbzjTYq4

Xiao Kai Men Linear

Last edited by Bob on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby ctjla on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:17 pm

johnwang wrote:
John Brown on December 14, 2011 wrote:CZH: It is a level of skill ...

Do we all agree that if "internal" is a level of skill, you still have to develop skill first before you can raise your level.

develop skill -> use "internal" to raise your level

My questions are:

- When you are in skill development stage, what will you do anything different if you are an "internal" guy?
- Can you use external way to raise your level?


"What will you do anything different" - you won't use brute force to make something work. The "exertion" is manifested in focusing on principles like internal connection, alignment with gravity, coordinated joint rotation, etc. And, of course some technique -- while making sure not to become a collector that's just good at surprising people with something they haven't seen before. This only works on the less skilled anyway and probably only a few times. Maybe think of something like this..

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:17 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:In your opinion, why it's not emphasized in "internal" CMA?
Because they were not developed as sports, but are derived from battle and military strategies and tactics. In sports you can throw away or sweep your opponent and win. But in combat you cannot lose contact with the opponent until you have finished him. Pushing away people as seen in tai chi is a mistake as well and for practice only. Sweeping in general though is probably a much more useful skill than "pushing".

In the ancient battle field, soldier had heavy armor on. If you sweep your opponent down, he may not be able to get back up again.


or alternatively.....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCs8YBbBzc0

I think this is a pretty good recreation of what combat in armour would have been like - bear in mind that it's a duel, so they're using swords. I think in a battle a mace or hammer would have been more useful ( later on in the film that's what the King used in a battle).

Obviously once they fall they try to get up. Sometimes they can't because the conditions don't let them. Either way, they do what needs to be done.

This one was decided by a deadly leg attack (foot sweep).

Does it matter if it's internal?
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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