Is "internal" real that important?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:55 pm

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Internal = slow

This is normal speed training.

Image

Is this the slow speed training that you are talking about?

Image

Some drill is difficult to train slow.

Image

Some drill is impossible to train slow.

Image


Everything you discuss requires momentum which works off speed. The view taken is the opponent is there to be flattened.
When doing it this way the visualisation should be "I will grab an arm and my leg will smash and cut". The training therefore is "I will grab harder and faster than they can retract from and my leg must cut faster than they can correct their balance".

This works well against someone someone that can be overpowered (they are much lighter or not ready for the attack).

Now the same move done with a different focus.

I reach for the front hand and managed to connect with it. I don't grab and try to rip their arm off since I can't as they are bigger. I pull slightly and they react backwards which provides a small window of control. I add to that with a change to push it further so they are weighted on the back leg. The front leg carries little weight.

The foot sweep comes in and scoops (not smashes) to add an additional off balance. I place another hand on their shoulder and it also takes the balanced down. They fall.

One requires more skill & timing while the other requires more speed and power. I would like to think it is good to practice both ways but one must be learnt fast with momentum (external) and one must be learnt slowly with sensitivity and awareness (internal).
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:11 pm

Bao wrote:Just some random thoughts here... I watched different vids with Muay Thai/Thai Boxing clinches, tactics and defense as I remembered a vid with CZQ having a bad time: https://youtu.be/v2_HnOlhaWE

These two vids with defenses were pretty good:

https://youtu.be/VDctZByN9H4

https://youtu.be/pY4xU0JIuBo


CZQ seriously did not use good technique and tried to rely on whipping power. Works against a smaller person or someone that is offbalanced/unaware.

The MT ones are actually good for MT but they have limits. MT does the best it can under it's rule set but there's less opportunity to take the legs. It actually can be a problem when converting into more open rules because they are more upright and tend to focus in on the control from the clinch + sweeps (or knees).

OTOH Erik shows how it can also be done when taking the legs is allowed.



About 1 minute in is a nice little example of circling and taking balance but the overall video illustrates so many choices available. Doesn't take the legs but does do the balance well.

But even this can be done differently and this was an example of a clinch escape that seems more common in CMA:



The irony is that it is being shown from 2 guys in SJ jackets. The way I was taught it was more refined & I will call it more internal. The balance points used didn't have me being thrown but falling over and left wondering - why didn't I feel that throw?

CZQ could have done something closer to this.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:06 pm

dspyrido wrote:

The irony is that it is being shown from 2 guys in SJ jackets. The way I was taught it was more refined & I will call it more internal. The balance points used didn't have me being thrown but falling over and left wondering - why didn't I feel that throw?

CZQ could have done something closer to this.

This is a good example that power generation is not everything. You need to find the right key to open the right lock.

When your opponent uses double neck tie, he gives you a free contact point. You need to know how to take advantage on it.

Image

When you try to control my head, you give me a chance to control your head along with your arms. IMO, this should be the right attitude.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby ctjla on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:07 pm

dspyrido wrote:
johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Internal = slow

This is normal speed training.

Image

Is this the slow speed training that you are talking about?

Image

Some drill is difficult to train slow.

Image

Some drill is impossible to train slow.

Image


Everything you discuss requires momentum which works off speed. The view taken is the opponent is there to be flattened.
When doing it this way the visualisation should be "I will grab an arm and my leg will smash and cut". The training therefore is "I will grab harder and faster than they can retract from and my leg must cut faster than they can correct their balance".

This works well against someone someone that can be overpowered (they are much lighter or not ready for the attack).

Now the same move done with a different focus.

I reach for the front hand and managed to connect with it. I don't grab and try to rip their arm off since I can't as they are bigger. I pull slightly and they react backwards which provides a small window of control. I add to that with a change to push it further so they are weighted on the back leg. The front leg carries little weight.

The foot sweep comes in and scoops (not smashes) to add an additional off balance. I place another hand on their shoulder and it also takes the balanced down. They fall.

One requires more skill & timing while the other requires more speed and power. I would like to think it is good to practice both ways but one must be learnt fast with momentum (external) and one must be learnt slowly with sensitivity and awareness (internal).


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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:54 pm

dspyrido wrote: one must be learnt slowly with sensitivity and awareness (internal).

Not all technique requires fast speed. Some technique just require you to move with your opponent with the same speed.

If you define

sensitivity + awareness = internal,

IMO, all techniques will require sensitivity. Not too sure what awareness mean. To aware both you and your opponent is a must for all techniques.

In the following clip, I truly don't think any "internal" guy can do any different.

Image
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:23 pm

dspyrido wrote:I reach for the front hand and managed to connect with it. I don't grab and try to rip their arm off since I can't as they are bigger. I pull slightly and they react backwards which provides a small window of control. I add to that with a change to push it further so they are weighted on the back leg. The front leg carries little weight.

The foot sweep comes in and scoops (not smashes) to add an additional off balance. I place another hand on their shoulder and it also takes the balanced down. They fall.

One requires more skill & timing while the other requires more speed and power. I would like to think it is good to practice both ways but one must be learnt fast with momentum (external) and one must be learnt slowly with sensitivity and awareness (internal).

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote: one must be learnt slowly with sensitivity and awareness (internal).

Not all technique requires fast speed. Some technique just require you to move with your opponent with the same speed.

If you define

sensitivity + awareness = internal,

IMO, all techniques will require sensitivity. Not too sure what awareness mean. To aware both you and your opponent is a must for all techniques.

In the following clip, I truly don't think any "internal" guy can do any different.

https://i.postimg.cc/NGdCJHFp/my-scoop-1.gif

sensitivity + awareness = external too.

I posted this external foot sweep—no reaching, pulling or pushing which can be countered. Still no one answered with "a video of an 'internal foot sweep.'"

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of an "internal foot sweep" in sparring or fight? Or at least an "internal foot sweep?" I asked earlier but no one has posted one yet. Here is an external foot sweep in a fight:

Image
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:33 pm

marvin8 wrote:sensitivity + awareness = external too.


Is it? Show me on the human anatomy where sensitivity + awareness lie?

marvin8 wrote:I posted this external foot sweep—no reaching, pulling or pushing which can be countered. Still no one answered with "a video of an 'internal foot sweep.'"

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of an "internal foot sweep" in sparring or fight? Or at least an "internal foot sweep?" I asked earlier but no one has posted one yet. Here is an external foot sweep in a fight:

Image


Is this external?



The one guy pushes and pulls and takes the balance so are they really doing internal?

The answer you are looking for is not in a video but in the understanding of terms.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:41 pm

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote: one must be learnt slowly with sensitivity and awareness (internal).

Not all technique requires fast speed. Some technique just require you to move with your opponent with the same speed.

If you define

sensitivity + awareness = internal,

IMO, all techniques will require sensitivity. Not too sure what awareness mean. To aware both you and your opponent is a must for all techniques.

In the following clip, I truly don't think any "internal" guy can do any different.

Image


Awareness of both you & opponent? Internal concepts. Welcome to the family.

Awareness in the clip - if the training partner did not take a step back then this move won't work.

Do we always need this level of awareness? Not really. If in the clip the attacker was much stronger then they would not need:

1. That extra arm lift, drag and control he does at the end to take the balance
2. Instead of a gentle scoop with the foot he could kick and lift it damn hard and high

On the surface what looks similar can be done more "internally" and more "externally".
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:52 pm

dspyrido wrote:Awareness of both you & opponent? Internal concepts. Welcome to the family. Awareness in the clip - if the training partner did not take a step back then this move won't work.

If your opponent doesn't step back, you will pull him and throw him forward. The wrestling art is built on "aware your opponent's intention". Most wrestlers just don't talk about it and take it for grant.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:23 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:sensitivity + awareness = external too.


Is it? Show me on the human anatomy where sensitivity + awareness lie?

Yes, it is. External martial art or external martial artist as johnwang has been using the terms.

Show me on the human anatomy where "fast" lies?
dspyrido wrote:Let's simplify then.

External = fast
Internal = slow

Do you practise techniques slowly? Welcome to internal. Do it fast? Hello external.


dspyrido wrote:Is this external?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0To2Drl ... e=youtu.be

The one guy pushes and pulls and takes the balance so are they really doing internal?

The answer you are looking for is not in a video but in the understanding of terms.

Yes. Wrestling is an external art, per johnwang's definition. Those are external guys or external martial artists. It helps the discussion to understand and be consistent with your terms.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:05 pm

dspyrido wrote:Awareness in the clip - if the training partner did not take a step back then this move won't work.

Good question. This is why you (general YOU) have to learn the throwing technique in pair. As long as your left palm is on your opponent's leading elbow joint, if your opponent steps back, you throw him backward.

Image

If your opponent doesn't step back, you throw him forward.

Will you call this "internal"

- yield,
- sticky, and
- follow?

IMO, when we talk about the throwing art, I just don't see the line between "internal" and external.

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Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:25 pm

marvin8 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:sensitivity + awareness = external too.


Is it? Show me on the human anatomy where sensitivity + awareness lie?

Yes, it is. External martial art or external martial artist as johnwang has been using the terms.


But how do you define the term and the distinction?

marvin8 wrote:Show me on the human anatomy where "fast" lies?


Fast is easy to measure. Just take newtons laws and apply an estimated mean average based on the populace and if it's quicker then bingo ... it's fast.
Of you can be anecdotal and just apply personal experience.

Either way it is easy to see & hence falls into the external world.

marvin8 wrote:Yes. Wrestling is an external art, per johnwang's definition. Those are external guys or external martial artists. It helps the discussion to understand and be consistent with your terms.


I've described my view on the distinction of external/internal several times in this and other threads.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:37 pm

johnwang wrote:Will you call this "internal"

- yield,
- sticky, and
- follow?

IMO, when we talk about the throwing art, I just don't see the line between "internal" and external.


Which is external & which is internal in the following terms and their antonyms?

Yield vs. Assert
Stick vs. Detached
Follow vs. Combat

Yield, Stick & Follow are less obvious than Assert, Detached & Combat. Training in that area falls into the more "internal". Specialising in them and trying to not Assert, Detach & Combat are "internal" martial art characteristics that are trained that way from the beginning (some later add more harder/external characteristics).

Let's face it when people start wrestling they are very physical, hard and try to force what they are doing. Very external. As they get better at the technique they end up sliding towards internal as they develop.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby ctjla on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:38 pm

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote: one must be learnt slowly with sensitivity and awareness (internal).

Not all technique requires fast speed. Some technique just require you to move with your opponent with the same speed.

If you define

sensitivity + awareness = internal,

IMO, all techniques will require sensitivity. Not too sure what awareness mean. To aware both you and your opponent is a must for all techniques.

In the following clip, I truly don't think any "internal" guy can do any different.

Image


One thing you might be able to do is take about 50% of the load/stress/work off of (away from) that right leg. It looks like the left leg is a tiny bit rigid or bracing and the right leg is kicking/lifting sorta independently to make the sweep happen. That small left leg step/adjustment after the right leg is in place might go away too. There's a couple of other things but that's a start. I'm sure somebody else can chime in with their 2 cents.
Last edited by ctjla on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:46 pm

dspyrido wrote:Let's face it when people start wrestling they are very physical, hard and try to force what they are doing. Very external. As they get better at the technique they end up sliding towards internal as they develop.

When you start to wrestle, you are very physical, because you want to force your opponent to make a decision (either yield into you or resist against you). If you don't do that, you may have to wait until the spider web start to grow between your legs. This is one "internal" principle that I absolutely disagree with - if you don't move, I won't move.

You have to give before you can take. If you want to throw your opponent clockwise, you have to twist him counter clockwise first.

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