Is "internal" real that important?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:16 pm

I don't know how "internal' guys develop their toolbox. If you want your toolbox to contain the following tools:

- jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, side punch, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, flying knee, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ankle lock, ...
- hip throw, foot sweep, leg twist, leg lift, leg block, ...
- full mount, side mount, arm bar, leg bar, ...

Just to maintain your toolbox, you have to spend at least 2 hours of your training time daily. Where will you be able to find time to train your "internal"?
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:12 am

johnwang wrote:When I train, I do assume where my opponent's arms and legs are.

For example, when I apply foot sweep, if I assume my opponent has

- right leg forward, I need to use wheeling step to force my opponent to step in his left leg.
- left leg forward, I can just attack his left leg without any set up.

My footwork depends on whether I assume my opponent has right leg forward, or has left leg forward.


Isn't visualising a part of the internal method of training? I always thought that the internal arts focus on the mind over the body just means engaging the thinker rather than working out physically only. Hence "imagine you have an opponent" is an internal concept vs. hit this bag without engaging the brain is external. I mean I have seen great boxers & have been taught this way to throw a slow jab in the air where it might take 10 seconds to complete. For this they are less focused on building the body and more focused on developing the mind/body coordination. That does not mean they won't throw another thousand on a bag but it is a different excercise.

johnwang wrote:I don't know how "internal' guys develop their toolbox. If you want your toolbox to contain the following tools:

- jab, cross, uppercut, hook, hammer fist, back fist, side punch, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, flying knee, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, ankle lock, ...
- hip throw, foot sweep, leg twist, leg lift, leg block, ...
- full mount, side mount, arm bar, leg bar, ...

Just to maintain your toolbox, you have to spend at least 2 hours of your training time daily. Where will you be able to find time to train your "internal"?


Yes training will take a fair amount of daily activity but don't IMA's have solo and partnered moves that cover their specific toolbox? That is the "internal" part is trained as part of the toolbox?

Aside from that if you are referring to chi-gung or related meditative methods then yes they should be done outside of this.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Strange on Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:50 pm


Time 1:50
but its true, can take very very long time to understand
fortunately, some seem to be manage well enough
Chinese way/philosophy is the way of middle and balance,
i really should not need to say this to seasoned martial arts practitioner
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby ctjla on Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:25 am

Strange wrote:
Time 1:50
but its true, can take very very long time to understand
fortunately, some seem to be manage well enough
Chinese way/philosophy is the way of middle and balance,
i really should not need to say this to seasoned martial arts practitioner



Agree, the time investment can be significant and if one doesn't have access to the right teacher, the right foundation will likely never be developed.

So it's sort of like saying,' is "calculus" real that important?' I use it in my job, but only know a few other people who do. One can make an incredible amount of money and have no math skills beyond addition and subtraction.
Last edited by ctjla on Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:49 pm

ctjla wrote: if one doesn't have access to the right teacher, the right foundation will likely never be developed.

So it's sort of like saying,' is "calculus" real that important?' I use it in my job, but only know a few other people who do. One can make an incredible amount of money and have no math skills beyond addition and subtraction.

I can understand that everybody want to develop strong foundation. But what kind building that people want to put on that foundation?

- The calculus is only the beginning, there will be differential equation, modern algebra, category theory, ... after that.
- The power generation is only the beginning, there will be toolbox development, entering strategy, finish strategy, defense and counter, ... after that.

What will be the final goal of someone's "internal" development. I'm sure it's not just "power generation". What's the final product?
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Strange on Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:53 pm

for such question(s), one would normally check with one's teacher/master/shifu.
but i can understand, ppl can do things differently though...
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:09 pm

Strange wrote:for such question(s), one would normally check with one's teacher/master/shifu.
but i can understand, ppl can do things differently though...

Your teacher can only bring you inside the door. You have to do the rest yourself.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Strange on Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:55 am

... do you mean the rest like promoting SC and demoting "internal", saying there's no time for it?
John, your SC teachers from whom you learn from taught this to you in the beginning?
Or did you come up with this by yourself?

no offence you understand, i'm just trying to understand where you coming from
i personally have no experience with SC community

Just to share: my teacher, when asked, talks about the strong points of other arts;
telling us, his students, that we must be careful/mindful of this and that...
every school and arts have their high hand
Last edited by Strange on Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:21 am

Just to share: my teacher, when asked, talks about the strong points of other arts;
telling us, his students, that we must be careful/mindful of this and that...
every school and arts have their high hand


Playing around with people from different communities would get us into the understanding much quicker and better. The teachers are not always there. Which tool to use is situational and on our own responses and movements. Like putting the hand on the Judo guy's waist can restrain his movement when he tries to throw. MA learning is from hand talk. Your main form has a lots of SC techniques in there, just need to explore. Losing is the best way to learn as we would search hard in our toolbox and foundation training needed to get better.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:34 pm

Please notice that the SC (Chinese wrestling) is the oldest CMA ever exist in China. All CMA systems inherited DNA from the Chinese wrestling. To compare the Chinese wrestling with CMA is normal and not foreign.

This thread is not discussing striking (such as XingYi punch vs. boxing punch). This thread is discussing the difference between "internal" guys train the throwing skill vs. SC guys train the throwing skill. We started from "foot sweep" and get into "Dao Guo - knife hook", "trunk hitting - diagonal fly", and ....

I assume we all agree that the technique training is the same (or similar). The difference is the foundation development. What kind of difference in foundation development is where people's opinion can contribute into this discussion.

After you have developed your solid foundation, what kind of "final product" do you plan to construct? I don't believe my teacher or your teacher can tell us what goals we want to achieve. In this thread, we can all share our different goals.

My goal is:

foundation + toolbox development + defense and counter + entering strategy + finish strategy.

What's yours?
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:26 pm

In these clips, how to use Kua to enter is explained. Is it more fun to see many concrete examples that how people may use their Kua in combat?

Is Chinese wrestling that much difference from "internal"?

Image
Image
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby ctjla on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:42 pm

johnwang wrote:In these clips, how to use Kua to enter is explained. Is it more fun to see many concrete examples that how people may use their Kua in combat?

Is Chinese wrestling that much difference from "internal"?

Image
Image


Some things are a little different. Why gives Mifune his ability to recover and counter? What's the relationship between internal and 'unthrowable'? Well, mostly unthrowable, or really hard to throw. People compare rolling with RIckson to rolling with a bag of wet cement. Rickson says it's yoga. Result is the same sort of flexible immovability. Are they tapping in to something internal, that may look almost exactly the same on the outside but is different on the inside?

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Trick on Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:18 am

johnwang wrote:Please notice that the SC (Chinese wrestling) is the oldest CMA ever exist in China.

Yes that’s true, it was the first civilized organized hand to hand ‘pugilism’, it seem to have been an universal thing, since this(wrestling) seemingly was the case in any ‘civilized’ cluture around the globe.
It was also used as an ‘quick and safe’ body and fighting spirit conditioner for soldiers.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:54 pm

Many throws with leg skill exist in the CMA form. When we talk about CMA, it's impossible not to talk about Chinese wrestling. IMO, it's very interested to identify those leg skill.

Example of "切 (Qie) - front cut". Do you kick your leg back in your form?

Image
Image
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:34 pm

johnwang wrote:Is Chinese wrestling that much difference from "internal"?


The question is a bit confusing. Is it because people say things like "SC is external and TC/xy/bagua etc. is internal"? That someone who does karate, MMA or whatever can never be internal?

If so then I think this separation of internal and external styles is short sighted.

Do we not agree that
- training to be "soft" should be evolved to develop the body through repetition (steel wrapped in cotton)
- training hard should be evolved into leverage, whole body connection, timing (flexible steel)

Both require technique. If both ends are trained then it's natural they meet.

Can someone explain to me how it is possible to train external or internal in complete separation anyway?
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