Is "internal" real that important?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:15 pm

dspyrido wrote:Many who follow the ideal of TC have a view that to deflect an incoming punch the opponent feels nothing but balance lost. At that point the opponent tries to recover but something strange happens. They can't get balance and either sent flying or a limb is split. This is the ideal. Very yin & I'd say relies on a crazy level of technique, body awareness and training.

To lead your opponent into the emptiness is a very important principle used in SC. This is how the wheeling step is used for. You spin yourself away from your opponent's incoming path, give him all the space that he will need, and take advantage on his respond.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:38 pm

The Chang Taiji Ji (press forward) can be applied as the following clip. In Yang Taiji Ji (press forward), your left hand remain contact on your right wrist. In Chang Taiji, your left hand will keep moving forward (this make more sense IMO). Please notice the "shin bite - use shin bone to press the inside of your opponent's leg" and the "reverse shin bite".

Taiji body move + leg skill = SC.

IMO, hand skill + leg skill can bring CMA into another level. Most people can use their hand. Most people can also use their leg. But to be able to use both hand and leg at the same time is not easy without proper training.

Image
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:00 am

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:18 am

windwalker wrote:we stress foot work, postining, distance and timing, ...

My definition of "leg skill" is not kicking, footwork but to use your leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

In Taiji PH, you use your arm to deal with your opponent's arm. IMO, it's logical that you should also use your leg to deal with your opponent's leg. Why in Taiji PH, the arm contact is more emphasized than the leg contact makes no logical sense to me.

This also apply to the WC sticky hand. Where is the WC sticky leg?
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:31 am

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby windwalker on Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:47 am

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:11 am

Leg skill can be useful.



Find some sticky leg training.

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:40 pm

johnwang wrote:This also apply to the WC sticky hand. Where is the WC sticky leg?


In WC they have chi gerk. Includes close range strikes and sweeps. Not as common as it was viewed as an advanced method.



johnwang wrote:Image


Is this TC or SC? It looks like one but the box at the top says otherwise. Even has a solo bit.

johnwang wrote:Taiji body move + leg skill = SC.

IMO, hand skill + leg skill can bring CMA into another level. Most people can use their hand. Most people can also use their leg. But to be able to use both hand and leg at the same time is not easy without proper training.


Agreed but let's add the 7 stars and it becomes even more fun.

This is a good example to consider. SC (not the combat type) does not do strikes. Is that a bad thing? No because it provides focus on throws.

In softer styles there's a focus on the yin side and not being hard and forceful. Is that a bad thing? No because it provides focus on the other aspects.

I guess that is why so many of the better "IMA" guys I've seen cross trained across the big 3, SC and usually a striking basics style when they were younger. Plus lots of conditioning. Maybe extreme yin masters exist just like extreme SC exist but I've found better fight ability in cross trained people.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:03 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:I don't think that the taijiquan was more important than my job (digging with a breaker bar and phd, mixing concrete by hand, and wrenching on playgrounds and park structures), but it was just as important. Really, I thought it was the perfect mix. Ruthless manual labor, taijiquan, and continuing with my first arts of judo, jj, and sumo.


The early fighty IMA guys were labourers/security that used a lot of weighted implements to get the tenacious strength they possessed. There is some anecdotal evidence to back it but a lot of the training methods are near impossible to find in IMA circles. Maybe it's just evolution but it feels like it is almost a lost part of the arts.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:23 pm

dspyrido wrote:Image

Is this TC or SC? It looks like one but the box at the top says otherwise. Even has a solo bit.

Many years ago, David C. K. Lin and I created a 48 moves Chang Taiji form. We added leg skill into it.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:39 pm

IMO, the difference between "internal" and external is the following:

Internal:

1. Metaphysics (玄學).
2. Complete object -> individual parts.
3. You accept it, but you may not be able to prove it.
4. Cannot be measured.

External:

1. Science (格物).
2. Individual parts -> complete object.
3. You only accept it if you can prove it.
4. Can be measured down to mm, second, ...

2 is the most interested part.

- "Internal" believes in complete object (power generation, body unification, ...) and don't care much about individual parts (techniques - tools in your toolbox).
- External starts from the technique development instead. To an external guy, to be able to apply his technique effectively is more important than anything else.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:12 pm

johnwang wrote:- "Internal" believes in complete object (power generation, body unification, ...) and don't care much about individual parts (techniques - tools in your toolbox).
- External starts from the technique development instead. To an external guy, to be able to apply his technique effectively is more important than anything else.


Internal believes in both and trains accordingly. We combine internal and external. You just use external. You are the one who needs more tools in his box.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby dspyrido on Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:00 pm

johnwang wrote:2 is the most interested part.

- "Internal" believes in complete object (power generation, body unification, ...) and don't care much about individual parts (techniques - tools in your toolbox).
- External starts from the technique development instead. To an external guy, to be able to apply his technique effectively is more important than anything else.


Not that I can understand how to separate 100% internal or external but .... to stick to this this line of thinking it makes sense to study:

1. External & learn some techniques. Get the basics right.
2. Then later do internal and boost the power generation, body unification etc.
3. Go back to step 1

Over time technique will get better as to will power, unification etc.

Does this approach produce better results longer term?
Or is it deep down everyone does this shifting between external internal no matter what style they choose? Just some stay roughly more on one end than the other.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:26 pm

dspyrido wrote:1. External & learn some techniques. Get the basics right.
2. Then later do internal and boost the power generation, body unification etc.
3. Go back to step 1.

As far as I know, most people take this approach in Taiwan in my generation. My long fist teacher won't teach Taiji to his students unless they have had at least 3 years of long fist training. In this thread discussion, I can tell that some people don't pay much attention on technique development. If you start from external -> "internal", you will have no option but to go through the technique development first.

dspyrido wrote:Does this approach produce better results longer term?

For striking art, I have talked to many people who start from:

long fist -> preying mantis -> Baiji -> Xing Yi

They all told me that this training sequence can produce good result.

As far as for the throwing art, I don't have enough data to support it. This thread is trying to collect such data.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:37 pm

IMO, all striking art should go throught this kind of training (start from 0.50). Without it, one just can't say that his has trained the striking art.

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