Is "internal" real that important?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby windwalker on Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:01 pm

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:51 pm

In that case, learning how to run someone over with a car, shooting them with a gun or chopping them with a sword are all better methods.

I just don't understand why you would post on a forum about internal martial arts when you don't believe in internal martial arts. What are you trying to accomplish here? If you are looking for more students you are better off making high quality videos on Youtube. I often question why I post on here, but I at least practise an internal martial art...
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Bao on Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:03 pm

- Goal: knock/take my opponent down ASAP.
- Path: Whatever training that can help me to reach to my goal.


Some people like the term art and has the goal of making their MA an art and practice it as art. I wonder where the word “Art” fits in your description?
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby Ed Ladnar on Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:15 pm

Bao wrote:
- Goal: knock/take my opponent down ASAP.
- Path: Whatever training that can help me to reach to my goal.


Some people like the term art and has the goal of making their MA an art and practice it as art. I wonder where the word “Art” fits in your description?


Mr. Wang, did you ever meet Dan Harden or Mike Sigman? They would argue and be able to demonstrate that the "esoteric" internal training you seem to dismiss would aid you in reaching your martial goal.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:10 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:I just don't understand why you would post on a forum about internal martial arts when you don't believe in internal martial arts. What are you trying to accomplish here?

My SC teacher Chang Tung-Sheng trained Taiji and XingYi also. I had asked him whether he believed in internal could enhance his throwing skill (not punching skill. Most of his punching skill came from XingYi), his answer was no. So I'm not the only person who feels this way. There was a period of time that I tried to integrate SC and Taiji together. I found out both art contradict each other big time. The major conflict is:

- a Taiji guy waits for opportunity.
- a SC guys creates his opportunity.

My students may still continue that effort. But I have given up on that integration.

I strongly believe in

- the external 3 harmony (hand/foot coordination, elbow/knee coordination, shoulder/hip coordination). I don't believe in the 3 internal harmony because I believe the MA ability should come out from the body without thinking.
- power come from bottom -> up and back -> front.
- the end of the previous move is the beginning of the next move (continuous and non-stop).
- borrow force.
- move body out of the attacking path.
- …

Am I anti internal? I don't think so. I just believe all those quality also exist in all external systems as well. I believe there is a right way of doing thing and there is a wrong way of doing thing. I don't believe there is an internal way of doing thing and external way of doing thing.

We have talking about internal and striking in this forum all the time. We have not talked about (at least not in deep level discussion) that how internal can enhance

- kick (such as a front kick),
- lock (such as a wrist lock).
- throw (such as a foot sweep).

If we just talk about internal punch, IMO, we are not talking about internal in deep level yet.

Bao wrote:Some people like the term art and has the goal of making their MA an art and practice it as art. I wonder where the word “Art” fits in your description?

The word "art" has no meaning to me. Even today, when people talk about "self-cultivation", I still have no idea what they are talking about.

Ed Ladnar wrote:Mr. Wang, did you ever meet Dan Harden or Mike Sigman? They would argue and be able to demonstrate that the "esoteric" internal training you seem to dismiss would aid you in reaching your martial goal.

I have never met with them. Mike Sigman had visited Austin, Texas one time. Another RSF member asked me to meet him while Mike was in Austin. In my pass experience that every time I had met a Taiji master who claimed to have a strong rooting and cannot be moved, I always like to challenge that person by dragging him in circle. It always ended with unpleasant ending. IMO, it makes no sense to meet with someone if I can predict some problem may happen.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:19 pm

Well, I believe that Shuaijiao will help you develop a strong root, similar to Taijiquan. I now also believe that Taijiquan is not a very efficient way to learn how to fight, which is why I stopped training it. I do believe, however, that Xinyiliuhequan, Xingyiquan, Tongbiquan, Baguazhang etc. are very efficient at teaching striking, depending on the teacher, and will help develop skills that cannot be taught in other martial arts and are well-worth learning and preserving.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:31 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Well, I believe that Shuaijiao will help you develop a strong root, similar to Taijiquan. I now also believe that Taijiquan is not a very efficient way to learn how to fight, which is why I stopped training it. I do believe, however, that Xinyiliuhequan, Xingyiquan, Tongbiquan, Baguazhang etc. are very efficient at teaching striking, depending on the teacher, and will help develop skills that cannot be taught in other martial arts and are well-worth learning and preserving.

We may have some mis-understanding through discussion. I always have strong respect to the Xing Yi system myself. To coordinate my punch with my leading foot landing is always my bible.

The long fist GM Han Ching-Tan always said that one should have:

- XingYi hand,
- Taiji waist,
- Bagua footwork.
- Long fist kick.

GM Han addressed Taiji as the soft, smooth, fast waist movement.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:54 pm

Have you ever experienced the Tongbiquan 劈掌? We call it 甩劲.

I don't believe that there is enough time to be proficient in everything, so I trimmed my system down to the striking essentials; 四门拳, four linear attacks (punches) and 四大形, four circular attacks.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:21 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Have you ever experienced the Tongbiquan 劈掌? We call it 甩劲.

I don't believe that there is enough time to be proficient in everything, so I trimmed my system down to the striking essentials; 四门拳, four linear attacks (punches) and 四大形, four circular attacks.

I also cross trained the white ape and iron palm too. Palm strike is one of my major "finish move". I'm still training that even today.

I have trained this white ape form for a long time. It contains a lot of palm strike. Not sure it's similar to Tongbi or not.

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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:06 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In fighting, one should be able to adjust (change) to the situation, ...

I have thought about this when I drove from California back to Texas. Here is another example that I try to create opportunity.

If I use my leg to lift my opponent's left leg, at that moment all his weight is on his right leg. If I sweep his right leg, he will be down. Of course I can wait for my opponent to shift weight. The issue are:

- I don't know when that opportunity will happen.
- I'm not sure when that opportunity happens, my rooting leg will be at the right position and ready to do the sweep.

If I create that opportunity myself, my rooting leg will be at the right position because I plan for that ahead of the time.

windwalker wrote:You mentioned you're not yet convinced.

Since I'm going to create 2 new black belt students, I try to design the best way for them to learn.

For example, you attack one leg first, you then attack the other leg afterward is a very important strategy.
- Use right leg to spring, hook, lift your opponent's left leg.

Right. But, how do you set up "spring, hook, lift your opponent's left leg?" If you fail at that, will you continue to do the same techniques over and over (again, predictable)?

johnwang wrote:- When his left leg is above the ground,
- You then sweep his right rooting leg.

In this simple combo training, I just don't know how the "internal" training can help me to do this any better.

The problem is he may not let you "lift his left leg off the ground." Again, by training you to understand and use the opponent's energy (e,g,, balance), be formless and not be stuck forcing certain techniques or combinations:
Zhang Yun wrote:4. Using jin in pushing hands and fighting

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone. . . .


johnwang wrote:We may have some mis-understanding through discussion. I always have strong respect to the Xing Yi system myself. To coordinate my punch with my leading foot landing is always my bible.

Confused, here your leading foot lands before the punch. Is that wrong? Or, do you use both, like in boxing and MMA?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB4cVYvSN6Y
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:09 pm

The Xingyiquan punch and Tongbeiquan Pizhang are both types of internal power. Do you feel like a TKD practitioner or boxer can produce that same power?
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:30 pm

marvin8 wrote:1. Right. But, how do you set up "spring, hook, lift your opponent's left leg?" If you fail at that, will you continue to do the same techniques over and over (again, predictable)?

2. The problem is he may not let you "lift his left leg off the ground."

3. here your leading foot lands before the punch. Is that wrong? Or, do you use both, like in boxing and MMA?

1. If I can get a head lock, under hook, over hook, belt hold, bottom of SC jacket hold, or waist wrap, my leg can reach to my opponent's leg.

2. If my opponent resists, I will borrow his resistance force, go backward, and change my leg spring into knee seize.



3. That video was recorded 40 years ago. Back then I still treated long fist as long fist and Xing Yi as Xing Yi.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:41 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:The Xingyiquan punch and Tongbeiquan Pizhang are both types of internal power. Do you feel like a TKD practitioner or boxer can produce that same power?

The XY power generation is softer that the Baji power generation. IMO, XY method may take at least twice as much time to train than the Baji method. Many people believe that one should start from the Baji method and then move into the XY method. Otherwise the foundation is not strong enough (such as to hold in each posture for 8 inhales and 8 exhales).

One nice thing about the long fist training is to hold a posture for a long period of time. We had 50 students in the long fist class. When teacher called a move, he corrected each and every student's posture. Until all students had been corrected, my sweat had dropped around my body and made a human shape on the ground.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:49 pm

There are many different ways to do a Xingyi punch or a Bajiquan punch. Different teachers teach it different. I dondon't believe that it is possible to say that one is harder. I have a student that studied Bajiquan for many years and believes that my Zhenjin is superior to at least what he learned. I have personally met at least five Xingyiquan masters and their power was totally different from each other, but all internal somehow. One had a really interesting type of Doujin.
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Re: Is "internal" real that important?

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:03 pm

windwalker wrote:If the result matters over the method is it still CMA, if so why?

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