In the past

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

In the past

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:57 pm

There's a lot of stories about martial prowess in the past (let's say older than 100 years ago). Some are certainly fantasy, others are borderline and some are believable.

Do you feel palace elite, security guard, mystical monks or other had real ability that would challenge fighters now days? If so why?

More importantly & as their lives depended on it ... how did they train in the past that gave them an edge? What would a typical day in their training life look like? How would it evolve with time?

Bonus points for any documented evidence.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2261
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: In the past

Postby everything on Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:06 pm

for sport, no. source: extensive video, nutrition and training science from other sports worth many orders of magnitude more than combat sports save for the outlier top boxers, etc. = today's athletes in every field at every level are / can be better.

for other situations with limited guns, tanks, cameras, laws, forensic CSI crime fighting, different social mores (we fist fight 1v1 til someone is on the ground, a "duel" is allowed by high placed politicians, e.g., Burr-Hamilton), who knows.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5304
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: In the past

Postby Taste of Death on Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:29 pm

In a fight to the death I would take Miyamoto Musashi over anyone in the UFC.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
User avatar
Taste of Death
Wuji
 
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:07 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: In the past

Postby everything on Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:26 pm

I searched for the Mortal Kombat fatality pic to say "Musashi Wins. Fatality", but found this one instead.

Image
Last edited by everything on Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5304
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: In the past

Postby Trick on Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:54 am

The nutrition thing. Weren’t the ‘Beefeaters’ called so because they where ransomed extra chunks of meat, especially beef then. To keep their body’s stronger than what most where back in the days...
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2892
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: In the past

Postby Trick on Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:03 am

In the past i guess guards probably had combat experience where there was a threat to there lives. Those who succeed must have for sure developed all the main importance for combat, situational awareness, timing. And in sharp situations one might have had experience an ‘deeper’ sense of awareness that seemed as of an higher state consciousness.
But in combat they where armed since a threat would most probably be armed too. Only when into retirement where probably when they began based on their experiences to ‘refine’ their knowledge, which was now not only just a method for combat
The refined knowledge where for civil practice. Soldiers and guards had a more rudimentary and quick practice regime...?
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2892
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: In the past

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:17 pm

Do you feel palace elite, security guard, mystical monks or other had real ability that would challenge fighters now days? If so why?



After many years, Wong Yan-Lam grew homesick and decided to return to Guangdong. He also decided that he finally wanted to accept students and teach Lama Pai. Upon arriving in Guangdong, he erected a large wooden stage and announced that he would accept any challenger to prove the effectiveness of Lama Pai. For the next 18 days, 150 of the area's best fighters were punched, kicked, thrown or strangled into submission. According to David Chin, "Either the challenger was maimed or killed. Wong never let one challenger leave his school without injury. He was a master of using the technique of cruelty."

http://www.baihepai.com/pak-hok-pai-lio ... %E7%BB%8F/


Back in the day, the fighters were not as limited to the rule sets of today....all understood this at the time.





Image

The 438 of professional wrestlers at Shan Pu Ying (善扑营) belong to but one of the three capitol city garrisons. The one where Yang Luchan, Liu Zhijun, and Song Mailun taught at – Shen Ji Ying, had over 2,000 instructors/weapons experts who led the training of 30,000 strong palace guards. That plus the battle-hardened agents of Big Ten security companies (Biaoju), members of Big Six martial arts of the north, and all the people who flock to the city to make a name for themselves, Beijing during Qing Dynasty represented the peak of development and growth of traditional martial art.



In 1933, Yuan Liang became the fourth mayor of Beijing. Yuan was deeply interested in martial arts, and asked head of Beijing Physical Culture Institute (北平体育研究社) Xu Yusheng (许禹生) to recommend a teacher for him. Xu was one of the first modern educators in modern China. Between age 20 – 24, Liu Dekuan came and taught him at his house. Beijing Physical Culture Institute was the first time martial art was taught to the public outside of the traditional private master-disciple system. Many of the first generation instructors were great masters, they were responsible, as a necessity for teaching large classes, systematizing, formalizing, and in many cases creating (ex. Bagua Jian) many of the empty hand and weapons routines in traditional martial art. So Xu knew everyone.

Yuan Liang had one pre-condition, that he would fight each candidate, if he loses, he will be the disciple with no questions asked. The first few candidates, afraid to harm the most powerful man in Beijing, held back and ‘lost’. Yuan was deeply unsatisfied. He demanded Xue Yusheng produce someone better.


https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif


"Wuyizidi" blogg

addresses the types of training, and the results of failure
gives a glimpse into the past addressing
some of the questions here
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:05 pm, edited 6 times in total.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: In the past

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:46 pm

Besides, we knew people inside the palace got the real skill. As the famous saying goes “Of Luchan’s students, Wanchun (萬春) got his hard fajin, Lingshan (凌山) was adapt as throwing, and Quanyou (全佑) was skilled at neutralization.”

So these were his three best students (besides his sons of course). Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quanyou were Manchurian guards working at Prince Duan’s palace. Wangchun and Lingshan had no desciples, Quanyou today is respected as founder of Wu Style Taijiquan.

According to family lore within Taiji circles, there were actually two other Manchurian students who obtained Taijiquan skill before these three, but they both perished during the invasion of Eight-Nation Alliance.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/

the yang family style can be very different depending on linage.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: In the past

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:48 pm

In the previous post we talked about masters who taught princes and nobles. In terms of status and prestige, that is definitely the highest level a professional martial artist could aspire to.

In general, career options for martial artists – those whose focus purely on weapons and empty hand skills (vs broader studies involved in military arts), are few in traditional society. There were basically four:

1) The best, most ideal situation is one where the master has his own school. Here the students come to you. This requires the highest level of skill, as you have a known, fixed location, and anyone can come and challenge you. If you lose, by custom you have to leave and cede the school to the challenger.

2) The next level is being a teacher, but you don’t have your own school, you have to go to where the students are – you work for someone, or you teach in the military.

3) The third level is one where you have to risk your own life for protect the life or properties of private clients/masters. Examples are security company jobs, and bodyguard services. In the later scenario, normally you would be live at the household you are protecting.

Here the head of security can be a prestigious position, but the rank and file are basically servants of the house.

In general there is a huge fall-off in prestige between the second and third level, as people think only the desperate would risk their lives like that.


Because they fight in the real world all the time and employed so many martial artist, the Pao Chui group left perhaps the largest curriculum of any martial art group. Empty hand routines alone comprise of 108 sets. On top of that every type of weapon imaginable… They had a great reputation because of the constant feedback from their daily work, any weak members would’ve been weeded out very naturally, quickly.

Just as their rise was rapid and impressive, with the arrival of trains, ship, automobile, and better roads, the decline was also swift. The last of the “Big Ten” Biaoju closed its doors in 1920.

Martial art, like any human pursuit, is an organic product of its environment. When there are economic, military, social incentives, it develops and flourishes. When those needs go away or changes, the arts either decline, disappear or adapt to meet the new need. So it is that we can say the overall state of art for Xinyi/Xingyi (and most traditional Chinese martial arts) was definitely higher in year 1800 than year 1700, and better in 1900 then 1800, but in 2000 it’s definitely lower than 1900.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.co ... fe-combat/

The history is quite interesting
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7775
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: In the past

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:24 pm

Who wants to go 100 rounds with a bare knuckle boxer or fight with muay Thai boxer with crushed glass in his wrappings
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3681
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: In the past

Postby GrahamB on Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:38 pm

Since we're playing historical martial artist top trumps, I vote for Roman Gladiator!
I owe you nothing - Bros.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12126
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: In the past

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:05 am

Here’s the correct top ten list - https://www.thetoptens.com/ancient-warriors/
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2892
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: In the past

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:09 am

If talk Roman gladiators, weren’t they mainly ‘collection’ of other nations captured soldiers, already combat trained...(.Now that might just be so in the movies)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2892
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: In the past

Postby dspyrido on Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:57 pm

But how did they train?

In CMA circles there's a lot about the fame of a fighter and entire manuals showing forms. Some with herb formulas. Is that all they did?

They fought. Did they spar? Lift weight? Did they use weight in the exercises to get an edge? Was they weight in the weapons? Did they train for 10 hours ever day? If so how did they recover? Or was it they didn't really train hard but very light while sitting around drinking tea and talking about training hard? Or was it slow forms for 4 hours and then hard trading for 2?

What did they do back then and how does it differ from nowadays?
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2261
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: In the past

Postby GrahamB on Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:12 pm

But did they train as hard as the actors playing them? Aye, there's the rub...

I owe you nothing - Bros.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12126
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron