Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:33 am

This article by Scott

http://northstarmartialarts.com/blog1/2 ... of-my-book

is a response to a review of his book. There's so much stuff in here that's it's too much to unpack it all, and most of it is so beyond my ken that I don't want to get into it, but.... I found this point about Zhan Sangfeng and his connection with Quan interesting:

"—Every single academic mention of the Immortal Zhang Sanfeng in relation to martial arts, in English, has made the erroneous claim that the Immortal was not associated with martial arts during the Ming and Qing Dynasties. The earliest version of this mistake comes from Anna Seidel (1970), who probably relied on YMCA Consensus informants. The problem was compounded by Douglas Wile’s (1996) assertion that an Epitaph from 1669, which credits Zhang Sanfeng as the creator of Internal Martial Arts (Neijiaquan), was an analogy and thus we should disregard the plain meaning of the text. His reasoning is complex. The author of the Epitaph, Huang Zongxi, was critical of Golden Elixir teachers in his other writings and therefore he could not have looked with favor on Zhang Sanfeng as a famous Golden Elixir teacher, but instead, intended readers to deduce that Zhang Sanfeng in the Epitaph represented only Chinese Culture in general. This is clearly an error. The Golden Elixir is indicated twice in the Epitaph. The first time, as Wile notes, by naming Zhang Sanfeng, the second time, which he neglects, in the expression “flipping Shaolin on its head by reversing its principles.” To a practitioner of the Golden Elixir, like myself, this is a self-evident description of fruition (a point I explain in detail in my book). On top of that, the Immortal Zhang Sanfeng was already famous for his martial prowess in the 1597 play Sanbao Taijian Xia Xiyangji. In the play Zhang Sanfeng fights twenty-four palace guards using thirty-two distinct movements, called quan 拳 or fists, many are in the Tai Chi form, and eighteen were used by General Qi Jiguang in his famous fighting song. "

We have it drummed into us so much by Wile that the Zhang Sanfeng connection to martial arts is fake, that it's interesting to read a different perspective, and one with notes to a source before 1669 that links him to a boxing routine, especailly if it's true that the postures later turn up in Taijiquan, hundreds of years later.
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:04 am

There are several old texts, mostly Ming dynasty, but both earlier and contemporary to "The Epitaph..." that mention Chang Sanfeng and connects him with martial arts through the names of "Neijiaquan" and "Sanshiqi". Those old sources are obviously something Wile didn't know about or ignored.

So regardless if this is a semi-mythical person or not, there's no doubt that Chang Sanfeng was connected to martial arts very early.

And why Wile insists on that the descriptions in "The Epitath.." that "stillness overcome motion" (or rather "movement is generated from stillness") has nothing to do with modern Tai Chi Chuan is a mind-boggling statement, a conclusion solely based on personal opinion.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby yeniseri on Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:31 am

There are at least 3 well known individuals with the Zhang Sanfeng!
It is a custom to deify 'patron saints' in that era as much as the information and reality of the man who lived to be over 300 years or so is an exaggeration of actual events. In certain circles, even decreasing or increasind one's age to be more "importannt' (appearances) goes a long way with keeping the Myth alive. Joseph Campbell would be proud ???
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:40 pm

yeniseri wrote:There are at least 3 well known individuals with the Zhang Sanfeng!
It is a custom to deify 'patron saints' in that era as much as the information and reality of the man who lived to be over 300 years or so is an exaggeration of actual events. In certain circles, even decreasing or increasind one's age to be more "importannt' (appearances) goes a long way with keeping the Myth alive. Joseph Campbell would be proud ???


I only know about one and don't know who the others are, but there are some conflicting information in some texts. In the old documents of the official History of Ming there are few different accounts of Zhang Sanfeng written by different people. In one of them it says that he was ordered to court by first Ming emperor, Ming Taizu in 1391. There are reasons to believe that he was quite old at that time and probably born in the late Yuan dynasty, Other non-official texts that puts him in late song dynasty are probably not very reliable. Official records tend to be the most reliable sources.
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby Trick on Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:15 am

ZSF the creator of TJQ, his legacy lives on, an immortal truly, long live ZSF !
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby LaoDan on Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:20 am

I have no idea how much Chinese plays from around 1597 reflected history and how much was “creative license”. I suspect drama trumped history as much then as it does now in works of fiction, even for fiction based on history. I wonder why Scott puts so much faith in whatever possible historical information may have been included in old dramatic works. Dramas, religions, rituals, superstitions, etc. may provide clues to what people at the time found believable, but they do not seem to me to be very reliable sources for historical accuracy. What may be believable does not equate to being true. I have not read Scott’s book, and he is correct that researchers should not ignore these sources, but there would need to be more historically reliable confirmations before I would give theories derived from them much serious attention. Speculation built on fiction can be interesting, but more reliable sources would need to be found in order for those speculations to become acceptable. One would not conclude that many Chinese martial artists [martial/ritual groups] from around 1900 (in reference to the Boxer Uprising that Scott mentions) were invulnerable to bullets just based on their ritual training and beliefs, would one?
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby GrahamB on Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:42 pm

LaoDan wrote:One would not conclude that many Chinese martial artists [martial/ritual groups] from around 1900 (in reference to the Boxer Uprising that Scott mentions) were invulnerable to bullets just based on their ritual training and beliefs, would one?


No, one wouldn't. Quite right. But I'm not sure that's the issue, unless you believe that a Toaist sage called Zhan Sanfeng actually ahieved a state of immortality? I don't think anybody does believe that, or is claiming that.

I believe the claim by Wile was, that there was no reference (anywhere) to Zhan Sanfeng linking him to martial arts practices before the Epitaph of 1669. Apparently, there is.
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby robert on Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:44 pm

GrahamB wrote:I believe the claim by Wile was, that there was no reference (anywhere) to Zhan Sanfeng linking him to martial arts practices before the Epitaph of 1669. Apparently, there is.

OK, What, where is the reference prior to 1669?
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby taiwandeutscher on Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:29 am

May I suggest reading Wong Yuen-Ming's article "Taijiquan: Heavenly Pattern Boxing" again?
Journal of Chinese Martial Studies, winter 2010, issue 2, pages 28 - 37
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby GrahamB on Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:33 am

Yes, I’ll just call for my butler to fetch it from the library for me. Although he has been complaining of a bad back of late, and the ladders can be troublesome. Is there some way, perhaps that a copy exists online? I don’t like to trouble him so much these days.
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:24 am

GrahamB wrote:Yes, I’ll just call for my butler to fetch it from the library for me. Although he has been complaining of a bad back of late, and the ladders can be troublesome. Is there some way, perhaps that a copy exists online? I don’t like to trouble him so much these days.


Sir requires a periodical?

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 2&start=30
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby GrahamB on Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:17 am

Thank you Smithers. I'll take it with a brandy in the study.
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby GrahamB on Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:08 am

Let me be clear here; in my mind, that does not diminish the value or the interest of the martial art at all. On the contrary, it only shows the cultural depth of Tàijí Quán. I do not have any problem with people claiming that they practice Tàijí Quán as a Daoist practice or spirituality. Indeed, it has become for many people in China or in Western countries part of a spiritual path involving Daoist concepts. I am only stating that this claim is culturally and historically construed and is not a universal truth. Other people simply rejects this interpretation and maintains that martial arts are simply a way to learn to defend oneself and his or her family, or to stay healthy, or to simply pass a good time and socialize. All in all, it just shows that the practice of any martial art is not ahistorical and that it evolves constantly following the expectations of the practitioners.


Interesting article, but I don't see any mention of Zhan Sanfeng in there?
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby denchen on Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:59 am

Interesting article, but I don't see any mention of Zhan Sanfeng in there?[/quote]Heavenly Pattern Boxing


Can't get the staff these days...



New information about the history of Taijiquan

Translated, summarised and edited by Dr Hermann Bohn, following the original by Wong Yuen-Ming: “Taijiquan: Heavenly Pattern Boxing”
The history of the origins of Taijiquan remains controversial and generates much debate, especially in its country of origin. One common motivation here is the protection of one’s own interests.

In order to introduce new aspects into this debate, Wong Yuen-Ming has studied a large number of little-known sources and has found, above all, evidence for links between the Daoist Zhang Sanfeng and martial arts that could have been the forerunners to modern Taijiquan, and for a very early use of the Taiji concept with regard to these martial arts.

Another interesting aspect is the relationship between the Taiji symbol and the stellar constellation of the Great Bear. Dr Hermann Bohn has translated and summarised the article in which Wong Yuen-Ming has published his results to date.

http://www.tqj.de/england/issue43.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=8ZG1t ... ng&f=false

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7959

http://qigonginchina.com/daoist-origins-taiji-quan/

Daoism / Guest Post / Tai Chi

The Daoist Origins of Tàijí Quán (太極拳)

Posted by Roy Hanney on January 21, 2014 at 12:20 pm

the daoist roots of tai chi quanThe Daoist Origins of Chinese Martial Arts in Tàijí Quán (太極拳) Manuals published in the West

By: Dominic LaRochelle, Ph.D. Laval University, Quebec City.


In Chinese martial arts circles, differences of interpretation concerning the origins of the art of Tàijí Quán are not new. In fact, they are at the heart of a century-old debate that generally divides scholars and practitioners. Chinese myths and legends have been in great part adopted by Western practitioners. The aim of this article is to analyze how was construed in the second half of the 20th century a complex rhetoric trying to convince Western readers of Tàijí Quán books that their practice has an ancient Daoist origin.
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The fact that no real scientific or historical evidence can be found to affirm that Chinese martial arts (or Tàijí Quán in particular) might have their origins in Daoist traditions is somehow beyond the point of my argumentation. It is not history that is at play here, but legitimation. It is undeniable that Daoist practices, Daoist thinking and Daoist worldview have influenced one way or another, the development of Tàijí Quán, at least in modern times. We could say the same about many others traditions, practices, customs or areas of Chinese daily life (or at least pre-modern daily life). After all, Daoism is one of the major intellectual currents of Chinese civilisation. My point is that the construction of Tàijí Quán as a Daoist spiritual practice is a modern invention that must be understand in a specific historical context: the emergence of Chinese modernity, on the one hand, and the development of Western contemporary spirituality on the other hand.

Tàijí Quán practitioners, whether Chinese or Western, adopted this “spiritual” point of view because it somehow justify and legitimate their practice within their own respective cultural horizon. These practitioners did not adopt Tàijí Quán because it is a spiritual practice whose origins can be found in Daoist traditions. That is what the rhetoric says, but in fact, I believe it is always the opposite that happens; practitioners made Tàijí Quán a spiritual practice by drawing from Daoist traditions the elements that meet their own expectations about what this martial art should be.

Let me be clear here; in my mind, that does not diminish the value or the interest of the martial art at all. On the contrary, it only shows the cultural depth of Tàijí Quán. I do not have any problem with people claiming that they practice Tàijí Quán as a Daoist practice or spirituality. Indeed, it has become for many people in China or in Western countries part of a spiritual path involving Daoist concepts. I am only stating that this claim is culturally and historically construed and is not a universal truth. Other people simply rejects this interpretation and maintains that martial arts are simply a way to learn to defend oneself and his or her family, or to stay healthy, or to simply pass a good time and socialize. All in all, it just shows that the practice of any martial art is not ahistorical and that it evolves constantly following the expectations of the practitioners.

Authors Biography: Dominic LaRochelle is a lecturer at the Faculty of Theology and Religious Studies of Laval University, Quebec City, Canada. His research focuses on the history of Chinese martial arts, their reception in Western societies, and their relation with religious traditions. He has been a practitioner of Chinese martial arts (wing chun, Tàijí Quán , bagua zhang and xingyi quan) for more than 15 years.

First published in: Journal of Chinese Martial Arts

NOTE: the article was so badly formatted in the original posting that I have taken the liberty of editing and reformatting it so it makes sense and doesn’t include the repetitions of text. As I have put a fair amount of work into this I feel it is within the bounds of fair use to post the article and I have included attributions where appropriate. Also it is one of the best articles I have found on the subject so worth reposting here I feel. If you are the author or feel you have a claim to the copyright to the article please get in touch and lets have a chat.



Bibliography

[2] Lost T’ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch’ing Dynasty (New York and Albany: State University of New York Press, 1996); T’ai Chi’s Ancestors. The Making of an Internal Martial Art (New York: Sweet Ch’i Press, 1999).

[3] “The Chinese Martial Arts in Historical Perspective”, Military Affairs (December 1981): 173-178; “Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan”, Journal of the Chen Style Taijiquan Research Association of Hawaii 2, no. 3 (1994): [N/A]; “Chinese Boxing. The Internal Versus External Schools in the Light of History and Theory”, Journal of Asian Martial Arts 6, no. 3(1997): 10-19; “Academia Encounters the Chinese Martial Arts”, China Review International 6, no. 2(1999): 319-332.

[4] Tàijí Quán , art martial, technique de longue vie (Paris : Guy Trédaniel/Éditions de la Maisnie, 1981).

[5] “Theater of Combat: A Critical Look at the Chinese Martial Arts”, Historian 52, no. 3 (1990): 411-431; “The Daoist Origins of Chinese Martial Arts”, Journal of Asian Martial Arts 2, no. 1(1993): 10-25.

[6] Daoism and Chinese Culture (Cambridge: Three Pines Press, 2001).

[7] Douglas Wile, “Tàijí Quán and Daoism. From Religion to Martial Art and Martial Art to Religion”, Journal of Asian Martial Arts 16, no. 4 (2007): 8-45.

[8] The “Golden Era” of Chinese martial arts manuals goes from 1912 until 1937.

[9] Wile, “Tàijí Quán and Daoism”, 12, 16.

[10] Wile, “Tàijí Quán and Daoism”, 37.

[11] Westerners (at least English and French speaking people) often take the easy way and translate the Chinese word qi by ” energy “, a term that does not adequately render the complexity and subtlety of the Chinese word in its original cultural context. When it comes to human beings, qi is usually better translated as “breath”. In its cosmological context, it might be better viewed as “life force”, but it still remains a term that defy translation unless one forget all the cultural background this concept drags with it. For the sake of simplicity, I choose the easy way and keep the word “energy”, as most popular authors keep using it.

[12] Barbara Davis, The Taijiquan Classics. An Annotated Translation. Including a Commentary by Chen Weiming (Berkeley: North Atlantic Books, 2004), 113.

[13] Joseph Svinth identified a few cases of Chinese immigrants teaching martial arts in the United States and in Canada, i.e. in 1864, 1922, 1930, 1940 and 1941. However, it seems that all these cases concern Chinese people teaching exclusively to Chinese. Svinth, Kronos: A Chronological History of the Martial Arts and Combative Sports, http://ejmas.com/kronos/NewHist1900-1939.htm, consulted in May 2012.

[14] Contrary to Japanese martial arts that were introduced to American practitioners as early as the end of the 19th century. Svinth, Kronos, consulted in May 2012.

[15] Stanley Henning, “The Martial Arts in Chinese Physical Culture, 1865-1965″, in Green and Svinth, ed. Martial Arts in the Modern World (Westport, Praeger Publishers, 2003), 27.

[16] With respect to this question, the books written by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo, Chinese Martial Arts Training Manual. A Historical Survey (Berkeley: North Atlantic Books, 2005); Jingwu. The School that Transformed Kung Fu (Berkeley: Blue Snakes Books, 2010), on Chinese martial arts manuals and the history of the Jingwu Association are highly instructive. Also, Andrew D. Morris devoted an entire chapter of his study on the history of sports in Republican China to the modernization of Chinese martial arts at the turn of the 20th century: Marrow of the Nation. A History of Sport and Physical Culture in Republican China (Berkeley: University of California Press, 2004).

[17] Dominic LaRochelle, “Making the New Appear Old: The Daoist Spirituality of Chinese Martial Arts in Tàijí Quán Manuals Published in North America”. To be published.

[18] Wile, “Tàijí Quán and Daoism”, 10-11.

[19] Kohn, Daoism and Chinese Culture, 6; Isabelle Robinet, “Original Contribution of Neidan to Taoism and Chinese Thought” in Kohn, Livia, ed. Taoist Meditation and Longevity Techniques (Michigan: Center for Chinese Studies, University of Michigan, 1989), 317-321.

[20] Indication of longevity practices can be found in 2nd century B.C. documents such as the Mawangdui Daoyin tu, or even earlier philosophical texts such as the Daodejing and the Zhuangzi. However, these documents do not talk specifically about martial arts.

[21] Wile, “Tàijí Quán and Daoism”, 22-26.

[22] Tem Horwitz, Tai Chi Ch’uan. The Technique of Power (U.S.A.: Cloud Hands, 2003), 247.

[23] “Pour cette recherche du maintien de la vie, les anciens créèrent diverses disciplines s’appliquant aux différentes activités de la vie. […] Ils élaborèrent donc des techniques alimentaires, sexuelles, respiratoires, gymnastiques, des techniques de massages (sortes de mouvements de manipulation qui permettent, par des contractions et des pressions sur les point précis du corps, d’ouvrir le passage à cette force appelée Chi afin de lui permettre une libre circulation dans le corps tout entier), et, enfin cette danse de la vie qu’est le Tai-Chi.” Charles Anthony, Tai-Chi-Chuan ou la sagesse du corps selon le Tao (Paris : Épi s.a, 1977), 11.

[24] Yang Jwing-Ming, Taijiquan Theory of Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. The Root of Taijiquan (Boston , YMAA Publication Center, 2003), 40.

[25] Josée Carmona, Le Tàijí Quán des origines. L’enseignement de maître Wang Bo de Shanghai, coll. Les maîtres de l’énergie (Paris, Guy Trédaniel, 1995), 72-73.

[26] Kristopher Shipper, The Taoist Body (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1993 [1982]), 100.

[27] In Western contemporary spirituality, health (physical, psychological, but also emotional) is often a synonym of spiritual enlightenment. It is an incarnate spirituality, in which the body becomes a temple, a place where the practitioner can live out his or her spirituality. In this context, for many people, good health becomes not only a concrete and palpable sign that the spirituality is effective, but also literally a form of salvation. See LaRochelle”Making the New Appear Old: The Daoist Spirituality of Chinese Martial Arts in Tàijí Quán Manuals Published in North America”. To be published; LaRochelle, ” Recomposition de l’univers philosophico-religieux chez les jeunes adultes pratiquants d’arts martiaux chinois au Québec. Vers une vision holistique du religieux-vécu “, In Jean-Philippe Perreault et François Gauthier, dir. Regard sur… Jeunes et religion au Québec. Coll. Regards sur la jeunesse du monde. (Observatoire Jeunes et Société, INRS-UCS. Québec, Presses de l’Université Laval), 87-100.

[28] Stuart Alve Olson, T’ai Chi According to the I Ching. Embodying the Principles of the Book of Change (Rochester: Inner Tradition, 2001), 29.

[29] Sophia Delza, T’ai Chi Ch’uan. Body and Mind in Harmony. An Ancient Chinese Way of Exercise to Achieve Health and Tranquility (North Canton, Good News, 1961), 180.

[30] Graham Horwood, Tai Chi Chuan. The Code of life. Revealing the Deeper Mysteries of China’s Ancient Art for Health and Harmony (St-Paul, Dragon Door Publications, 2002), 19.

[31] This philosophical tradition is comprised both of Laozi’s Daodejing and Zhuangzi’s text.

[32] Horwitz, Tai Chi Ch’uan, 81.

[33] Graham Horwood, Tai Chi Chuan. The Code of life, ix.

[34] Indeed a whole collection of books that has appeared on bookshelves in the last 40 years shows that these philosophical concepts can be applied to multiple areas of typical modern American life when loosely interpreted. That why one can find today in almost every bookstore titles such as The Tao of Golf, The Tao of Baseball, The Tao of Love, The Tao of Interpersonal Relationships, The Tao of Business, etc. A study of these books shows that their contents usually highlight a poor knowledge of the authors about Daoism and Chinese religious traditions in general, and present concepts that are closer to Western than Chinese spirituality.

[35] Kohn, Daoism and Chinese Culture, 21-22.

[36] Olson, T’ai Chi According to the I Ching, 31.

[37] ”Push-hands” (tui shou) is the basic two-person practice of Tàijí Quán learned subsequent to individual practice of the basic sequence of movements. In this exercise, the two partners execute movements with their arms stuck to one another, without any muscular force, or one trying to dominate the other. The aim is to harmonize the movement of each partner to develop arms sensitivity, and to develop the ability to sense, to “listen” to an opponent just by being in contact with him or her.

[38] Cheng Man-Ch’ing, T’ai Chi Ch’uan. A Simplified Method of Calisthenics for Health & Self Defense (Berkeley: North Atlantic Books, 1981), 24.

[39] Sophia Delza, T’ai Chi Ch’uan. Body and Mind in Harmony, 182-183. I will not linger here on the problems that pose these legends regarding the historical connection between neijia quan and Tàijí Quán . Others have clearly shown that this connection has been made-up by the Wu and Yang families at the end of the 19th century (see Henning, 1994; Wile, 1996). Recently, however, Wong Yuen-Ming has proposed a new interpretation on the role of Zhang Sanfeng and the connection with Daoist traditions and concepts that might revive the debates (“Tàijí Quán : Heavenly Pattern Boxing”, Journal of Chinese Martial Studies, Issue 2 (Winter 2010): 28-37. My point is essentially to show that these legends made their way to Western practitioner’s mind and have been accepted beside the lack of historical evidence available to them.

[40] Herman Kauz, Tai Chi Handbook. Exercise, Meditation and Self-defence (New York: Doubleday, 1974), 10-11.

[41] Wile, The Making of an Internal Martial Art, 53. The epitaph tells that it was the Chinese God Zhenwu that taught Zhang martial techniques in a dream. The snake and bird fighting version of the legend came later on, probably at the beginning of the 20th century.

[42] Meir Shahar, The Shaolin Monastery. History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts (Honolulu: University of Hawai’i, 2008), 175-178.

[43] Bernard Faure, Chan Insights and Oversights. An Epistemological Critique of the Chan Tradition (Princeton and Oxford: Princeton University Press, 1993), 130.

[44] In particular, the fact that the epitaph of Wang Zhengnan might hide an anti-Qing dynasty political manifesto has often been highlighted. On this subject, see the enlightening work of Henning (1981, 1994, 1997), Wile (1996, 1999, 2007) and Barbara Davis (2004).

[45] “Les premiers faits historiques réels qu’on peut connaître sur la pratique de l’art martial de YinYang nous viennent du XVIIème siècle. C’est à cette époque qu’on situe l’existence de Chen Wangting, qui enseignait secrètement cet art à sa famille. La plus vieille école dont nous avons, aujourd’hui, des références concrète est l’École Chen. Un descendant de ce Chen, du nom de Chen Changxing (1771-1853), est à l’origine de tous les styles et écoles connus actuellement […].” Victor M. Becerril Montekio, Le Tàijí Quán d’Est en Ouest (Paris: Guy Trédaniel, 1993), 83.

[46] Olson, T’ai Chi According to the I Ching, 44.

[47] Arieh Lev Breslow, Beyond The Closed Door. Chinese Culture and the Creation of T’ai Ch’i C’huan (Jerusalem: Almond Blossom Press, 1995), 284.

[48] Thomas A. Green, “Sense and Nonsense: The Role of Folk History in the Martial Arts”, in Thomas A. Green and Joseph Svinth, ed., Martial Arts in the Modern World, 4-5.

[49] Clarke, John J. The Tao of the West. Western Transformations of Daoist Thought (London, Routledge, 2000), 138-139.
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Re: Zhan Sanfeng and his connection to Quan

Postby GrahamB on Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:38 am

Sorry, I worded that too briefly/badly. I mean, are there references to him pre 1669 epitaph? I think it's implying there are, but where are they?
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