Triangle submissions- dont get caught in one

[Bodywork]

Not a bad video. I just think you are overstressing your points. First up many of the variations are a bit dicey to apply. Secondly in a MMA environment they are "open" to many strikes. Third, you happen to be discussing this on a forum that specializes in power and power delivery in graplling and striking in shorts spaces. While I agree with you that once the shin or ankle is locked-in it is a matter of time - but saying it is over at that point is stupid and presumptuous. My god man do you know how many times I have stood up out of one-after it was set and his counter ankle grab / trip hip drive was useless, or twisted my body with a posted leg and drove my weight and applied so much pressure it opened his legs. There are some here who have seen me bounce men on their heads-nicely- till they let go. Have you ever seen Jackson’s mat smashing knockouts of guys who tried the triangle on him? In any event Judo’s triangle choke (Yes Judo-it was created by Mifune) is a great technique and I love it-but outside of limited grappling sports its viability (pulling it off to set it in) goes down due to strikes.

This forum
You are talking to a few men here who actually have internal power and the ability to deliver it in a MMA environment. Therefore trying to do an arm drag or lapel drag or pull us in or even successfully trap an arm on some of us may prove quite surprising. Have you ever heard of the term “freakishly strong?” Further, once close-in you really need to let some of us hit you from two inches away with us in the mount, or your guard, or on our backs, before you continue making presumptions. I have knocked men out cold and broken ribs that close. So while it is well and good to talk about BJJ and Judo’s many, strengths... There are -some-men here who understand your game well…can you say the same to us?

[Brady]

Before all the people come in here to bitch about Bodywork's seeming self aggrandizing, I have been on the receiving end of his ground short power. Being no stranger to the ground game and never have been submitted in many a BB Judo match, Dan messed up my ear and sternum while trying to play nice. I left 5 hours later with a huge lump on my chest and a ring in my ear (and a smile on my face). I have never been much for ground techniques and Dan is a good example of how expert application of short power can really mess up a chance for an adept BJJ or Judo guy to do anything.

[klonk]

I'm not a grapply-wrestly kind of guy. My whole exposure to the ground level stuff is a little bit of folk style "rasslin" in high school. So I don't actually know what I am talking about. But I am observant.

It seems to me that triangling begins from guard, and guard is something not too commendable in real self defense. Uh...somebody has you in his guard, what is his nearest vital target? (The Marine Corps self defense manual gives you a hint.)

And God help you if you do the guard thing and he has a pen knife. (I hear the Met is always looking for sopranos!)

[Brady]

I've seen countless triangles applied seemlessly from standing and they make it look damn good doing it too.

[Bodywork]

Sorry about that Brady. I was truly playing very cautiously and nicely.
I was just a bit piqued by the tone offered about "no one being able to get out of his triangle."

If my post was too strong-all I can say is confidence unfortunately goes hand in hand as sort of a side effect of the grappling game. Experienced guys wear it naturally and sometimes young men need to be reminded that confidence needs to be measured and circumspect through experience. There are nasty people out there with surprising abilities. Most young MMA'ers have no knowledge that there were many grapplers who had been playing this game, and chastizing our fellowTMA'ers for not experimenting themselves- long before the UFC was ever thought of. I rather enjoy a session of hands-on rolling and getting young men to re-think the wisdom of old training methods for use in a MMA environment.

[Bodywork]

I've seen countless triangles applied seemlessly from standing and they make it look damn good doing it too.

Not to mention that the guard can be used a sutemi waza (sacrifice throw) where in one instant the guys standing-in another he is dragging you over and down by his body weight.
Your upright...bang...you're in a gaurd on your way to a choke.

Agreed the Nuts are exposed in real life but so is the face and stomach. Grappling is limited by rules, but freestyle increases your sensitivity to movement and potentials ;yours and theirs. At the end of the day I still put my money on grapplers, better still grapplers with good striking for bringing a more practiced view and an increased percentage of viable technique.

[Brady]

Its all good, I need someone to rough me up when I first meet him to keep coming back for the goods. I'm not sure where I stand in regards to good triangles, I've almost been victim to a few (and I haven't felt the best) but I know that I just have no patience to learn ground techniques personally anymore.

[klonk]

Seems like you grapply chaps are just the people to comment on the Army BJJ Lite SD program. The discussion is over here.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2800

[Bodywork]

Its all good, I need someone to rough me up when I first meet him to keep coming back for the goods. I'm not sure where I stand in regards to good triangles, I've almost been victim to a few (and I haven't felt the best) but I know that I just have no patience to learn ground techniques personally anymore.

I think internal power is number one
Then striking with takedown resistance
Then grappling in all aspects
To be conversant in all is the best thing. There is nothing better than playing a game the other guy doesn't know well. I still remember a 4th dan Judo guy going on and on and on about judo in a real fight and how it prepared him for it better than jujutsu. I got so sick of listening to it I asked him to step up and show me. He grabbed me, and I instantly smacked him right in the face, grabbed his head, kneed him in the ribs and threw him. He was pissed off. Yet he was ...thee... only... guy in the room who didn't get it. Everyone else got it right away.
I Remember wrestlers getting killed in the first UFC's because they didn’t know how to finish. No strikes, no submissions. I remember screaming at the T.V. "Hit him!!!" Their training took over and they went on autopilot.
Hubris is a killer. Mixing it up keeps you edgy and honest

[Bodywork]

Seems like you grapply chaps are just the people to comment on the Army BJJ Lite SD program. The discussion is over here.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2800

I have talked it to death with Officers who developed it. Military and Leo are specialized fields ...sometimes..best left to those who know the turf.

[everything]

Its all good, I need someone to rough me up when I first meet him to keep coming back for the goods. I'm not sure where I stand in regards to good triangles, I've almost been victim to a few (and I haven't felt the best) but I know that I just have no patience to learn ground techniques personally anymore.

I think Internal power is number one
Then striking with takedown resistence
Then grappling in all aspects
To be convercent in all is the best thing. There is nothing better than playing a game the other guy doesn't know well. I still remember a 4th dan Judo guy going on and on and on about judo in a real fight and how it prepared him for it better than jujutsu. I got so sick of listening to it I asked him to step up and show me. He grabbed me, and I instantly smacked him right in the face, gradded his head, knee'd him in the ribs and threw him. He was pissed off. Yet he was ...thee... only... guy in the room who didn't get it. Everyone else got it right away.
I Remember wrestlers getting killed in the first UFC's because they doidnlt knoew how to finish. No strikes, no submissions. I remember screaming at the T.V. "HIt him!!!" Their training took over and they went on autopilot.
Hubris is a killer. Mixing it up keeps you edgy and honest

What is "gradded"? Wish I had been there. I enjoy judo but that is hilarious.

[WVMark]

I think internal power is number one
Then striking with takedown resistance
Then grappling in all aspects
To be conversant in all is the best thing. There is nothing better than playing a game the other guy doesn't know well. I still remember a 4th dan Judo guy going on and on and on about judo in a real fight and how it prepared him for it better than jujutsu. I got so sick of listening to it I asked him to step up and show me. He grabbed me, and I instantly smacked him right in the face, grabbed his head, kneed him in the ribs and threw him. He was pissed off. Yet he was ...thee... only... guy in the room who didn't get it. Everyone else got it right away.
I Remember wrestlers getting killed in the first UFC's because they didn’t know how to finish. No strikes, no submissions. I remember screaming at the T.V. "Hit him!!!" Their training took over and they went on autopilot.
Hubris is a killer. Mixing it up keeps you edgy and honest

Geez, give someone back their power and they go on a posting frenzy.

Hey, hope you had fun today mixing it up. In my dain bramaged mind, I was thinking about showing up today, but then that quickly faded when I realized I have family stuff this weekend. Erg. Oh well, next year is just around the corner.

Back to topic, what do you mean by "takedown resistance"?

[CaliG]

I think internal power is number one
Then striking with takedown resistance
Then grappling in all aspects.

It sounds like you guys got it going on.

Much respect, if had a school I'd like to teach this way too.

I know you guys do traditional Jujitsu, where did your IMA stuff come from?

[Bodywork]

I think internal power is number one
Then striking with takedown resistance
Then grappling in all aspects.

It sounds like you guys got it going on.
Much respect, if had a school I'd like to teach this way too.
I know you guys do traditional Jujitsu, where did your IMA stuff come from?

Short answer.
Traditional Japanese Koryu and years of personal development; both before and after of very practical fighting and cross training.
The Japanese arts- just like their Chinese counter parts- are filled with vast numbers of lackluster students who never really got it. There as well you will meet a host of students and teachers who haven't a clue either. The Japanese arts are worse in that many of the students are passive / agressive snobs totally sucked up in their arts *lineage* and secrets. The real secret being most of them suck, and never got it and they do not want you to know. Their next step is the big cover-up. wrapping themselves in "tradition" and their teachers reputation. The CMA, so far seem more practical and open. I have enjoyed the mindset of the ICMA much more so than their Japanese counterparts. One the whole it seems a more put-up or shut-up mentality, more akin to a grapplers mindset.
Oddly enough the best Internal power I felt (so far) in the ICMA is in the art most here make fun of the most...taiji. But there again it seems the reason it is maligned is for the same thing facing the JMA. That the vast majority-in this case taiji- have hosts of people just going through the motions and trying to understand the art from the oustide in instead of the inside out. Thus it at least appears
I think the guys who actually have it (in some form or another) are themselves a subset or *class* of men who are the guys doing the real work. I suspect it has always been this way.

[Bodywork]

I think internal power is number one
Then striking with takedown resistance
Then grappling in all aspects
To be conversant in all is the best thing. There is nothing better than playing a game the other guy doesn't know well. I still remember a 4th dan Judo guy going on and on and on about judo in a real fight and how it prepared him for it better than jujutsu. I got so sick of listening to it I asked him to step up and show me. He grabbed me, and I instantly smacked him right in the face, grabbed his head, kneed him in the ribs and threw him. He was pissed off. Yet he was ...thee... only... guy in the room who didn't get it. Everyone else got it right away.
I Remember wrestlers getting killed in the first UFC's because they didn’t know how to finish. No strikes, no submissions. I remember screaming at the T.V. "Hit him!!!" Their training took over and they went on autopilot.
Hubris is a killer. Mixing it up keeps you edgy and honest

Geez, give someone back their power and they go on a posting frenzy.

Hey, hope you had fun today mixing it up. In my brain damaged mind, I was thinking about showing up today, but then that quickly faded when I realized I have family stuff this weekend. Erg. Oh well, next year is just around the corner.

Back to topic, what do you mean by "takedown resistance"?

It was a bust. I was up at 5;30 doing the plow -out and car moving marathon-all over the property after not having power for eight days only to have everyone cancel due to poor driving conditions. Of course the Koryu crew trained anyway. Some driving two hours. Ya can't beat those hardcore types.
Takedown resistence is axiomatic to internal training. It is a precurser to any moves, or techniques. It is a trained connected power to retain balance and change force without effort and at the speed of thought. It is quite fun in grappling where they are used to muscle-force directed moves. As you well know from your own background most try to grasp and understand the internal through years of repetative waza. It's the ass-backwards thinking of most in the arts. Which is why they feel like they do. and many grapplers make fun of them.