Xingyi 5 elements as qigong

[everything]

if it's something similar to the qigong of 5 elements, I'm interested to hear more. will try to check out the online class and links in a bit. if you only want to talk about MA, that's certainly ok with me (this is the "xingyiquan - baguazhang - taijiquan" board after all!), although as I tried to indicate at the beginning, I'm hoping you want to talk more about the non-MA overlap for this topic. if you want to reject the TCM stuff, I totally get it, but that's specifically what I'm hoping the thread is mostly about. I mean it's called "5 elements" .

[Peacedog]

I think it is important to keep in mind that while early Chinese medicine practitioners were largely ignorant of anatomy, they were very sharp regarding physiology.

In fact, the organs all move through very specific planes of motion and they do so in a cycle. Which from a medical perspective is part of what is referenced in the five element cycle.

For a Western perspective, you can look at the book Visceral Manipulation by Jean-Pierre Barral and Pierre Mercier.

I'm familiar with multiple schools of bodywork in Asia that deal with re-establishing the proper movement of the organs as a result of either trauma and/or illness. As Everything has already pointed out, with a little training and sensitivity, it is pretty easy to tell when these things aren't working correctly.

From personal experience, I can tell you that one of the things acupuncture does is re-establish the proper movement of organs and thereby makes them work better aiding the restoration of health.

As such, this would represent a physical and/or astral/qi level effect of the elements. Part of the problem with traditional medical theory is that they did a very poor job of parsing out what was a physical vs astral vs mental aspect of an element in regards to the organs. They just lumped it all together, which is unfortunate as the tools used to manipulate reality on these three levels all differ radically.

[everything]

I do believe TCM figured a shit ton of stuff out, and we don't really know how the hell they figured it out. Once you have dis-ease, you can appreciate ease more, and it doesn't seem theoretical. "Blockage" becomes an apt description. The feeling of blockage was tangible like when you are "blocked" due to constipation (but obviously a different feeling). I don't know how you figure this out if everything has always been normal and you have always been fit and healthy. I think it's surely more difficult to have any clue what you take for granted, and it's understandable and easy to not be interested/curious or even be dismissive and call things "woo woo". But you are actually then a little clueless of this stuff unfortunately, which is obviously ok if you are Fedor or Tiger Woods, as far as your sporting career goes in your young/fit years.

[Peacedog]

One of the reasons why a lot of famous martial practitioners were also doctors is that the practice of traditional medicine allows you to train your ting jin or listening skill on a daily basis.

Reading pulses, abdominal diagnosis and just touching bodies on a frequent basis allows you to practice this in a non-martial context. It was all the same.

And while you might only get to touch half a dozen bodies at a time in martial practice with medical practice it gives you the ability to touch dozens of bodies per day. The conversion of skills is not a one for one thing, but enough crossover exists to make it worth your time.

On an even grosser basis, if you do a lot of martial arts knowing some bonesetting and dit da ke (traumatology) comes in handy as well.

And if you are doing this it is only natural to apply the five element cycle to what is going either martial or medical.

Finally, and this is very difficult for a modern mind thoroughly seeped in the cult of materialism to grasp, people traditionally did not section things off into martial, medicine, science, or whatever as separate and distinct blocks the way we do today. It was all just different applications of an overall cultural metatheory. No magic/science/religious divide existed for most of human history.

The five cycles described physical matter as well as medical and martial application. It was all the same. It was not a mere metaphor. It was a physical reality as well.

The past more than 100 years removed is virtually unintelligible to most people. Reincarnation, as an example, is a nice religious theory to some modern people. For millennia of human existence in multiple societies this was taken as a tangible physical reality and it can lead you down some really crazy logical decisions if you follow that to its logical conclusion.

I say this as between my medical, martial and metaphysical practices I've spent large amounts of time trying to square ancient theory with my modern mind. I didn't achieve any understanding of this due to an amazing intellect. Frequently it was from study and practice over and over again until I got bitch slapped in the face by reality. I cannot even guess how many times I've been dealing with some phenomena while reading an ancient medical or martial work and suddenly gone, "crap that is what the guy was trying to say."

[dspyrido]

Are you kidding? You and Wayne as bad as the magic flower people - lol

"spinal segments activate organs"

If you're organs are not activated, you're dead, so can you run that one by me again?

R u just picking up on the ferpect use of the language or the core concept? Metal opens up the lungs. Earth does the digestive parts etc. At heart it's all in the twisty spinally bits of the body moving around the area the organs are sitting to help things move along. Something missing in that?

[GrahamB]

Only that it’s as opaque a description as the “magic” you criticised.

That’s my point - you can’t criticise one load of non-scientific jargon and replace it with yet another.

How about some simple explanation in terms of basic physics and a how to?

For instance, what would "activate the lungs" mean?

[Trick]

The deep knowledge of Chauncey Gardner

As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden.

In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.

when one truly know the elements one can walk on water

[dspyrido]

Only that it’s as opaque a description as the “magic” you criticised.

That’s my point - you can’t criticise one load of non-scientific jargon and replace it with yet another.

How about some simple explanation in terms of basic physics and a how to?

For instance, what would "activate the lungs" mean?

You're calling deep breathing to fill the lungs that is coordinated with the chest opening and spine flexing plus other bits .... magic?

Or is the use of "activate" somehow confusing you? You know activate as in ... to make active.

Also for context do you do xingyi? I can't understand where the insinuation that anything described is at all mystical. Or even complex.

[dspyrido]

As such, this would represent a physical and/or astral/qi level effect of the elements. Part of the problem with traditional medical theory is that they did a very poor job of parsing out what was a physical vs astral vs mental aspect of an element in regards to the organs. They just lumped it all together, which is unfortunate as the tools used to manipulate reality on these three levels all differ radically.

Ok now thats magic.

But ... do you train xingyi? If so how do you align anything described to what is being taught in the system?

If it's just general 5 element TCM then I'll leave y'all to it.

[GrahamB]

Xingyi? Never heard of her.

I see you've avoided the chance to explain anything. I'll not bother asking again.

[everything]

Peacedog, that makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explanations.

[dspyrido]

Xingyi? Never heard of her.

I see you've avoided the chance to explain anything. I'll not bother asking again.

Oh well...

[wayne hansen]

Sorry about the predictive text mistake
All I was trying to say was don't complicate something that is meant to be simple
As for your comments Grahame
Tai chi and Hsing are two subjects you should give a wide berth
Someone mentioned how Hsing moves the organs
I stated that it was the nerves leaving the spinal colum that were affected
I may not of said it well but I think the meaning was clear
My Hsing I teacher was an acupuncturist,chiropractor and osteopath
I was his clinical assistant and taught Chinese massage at Sydney's leading natural medicine college
My main focus was on the bladder points on the spineus erectade and their effect on the organs
I diagnosed and treated using these points these are the points the Hsing I fists work on
I never stated the organs were inactive,I was pointing to the point that I have yet to see someone with control of these organs
Troll away

[GrahamB]

Thanks for the explanation Wayne, that's all I asked for.