Xingyi 5 elements as qigong

[windwalker]

It takes very little power to make this work if you are dealing with someone who has a very open mental body. It's also why it doesn't work on very grounded people like say Joe Rogan. The common use of various drugs by very grounded people to be creative is also a side effect of having a very closed mental body. What most people refer to as "creativity" only happens when the mental body is in an expanded state.

Thanks for a well reasoned reply
Not a fan of using martial practices for other than martial work.

But understand the changes within CMA at certain points in history, that tend to promote the viewpoints expressed here
Can’t comment much on what you’ve posted, it’s not something I've experienced within that context.
As you may know or not my work similar in nature is based on CMA within the context of CMA.

[Peacedog]

Once I started to view this stuff simply as technology A LOT of things started making sense.

That four part model I outlined is how most of this stuff works. Large portions of the rest of meditative/yogic training is about opening up the various sense gates in the body and learning how to focus your attention in a very specific way so as to be able to utilize these things in a controlled manner.

If people are just paying attention to the physical mechanics, and a little of the astral, they can get 90% of the martial and health related stuff. Which is why it is not uncommon to run into people who are as sensitive as a brick yet can generate a lot of power. They just have very little control, and generally no finesse, over what happens. The flip side, and you see this frequently with con artists and hustlers of various strip, if someone is very sensitive with the addition of just a tiny amount of power at the mental/astral level they can be extremely manipulative. And get away with it for a very long time.

Funny story, one of my students ended up beating the crap out of a guy with a telephone receiver when he caught him pulling this shit during an interview for a sales position with his company. Apparently the look on the guy's face when he realized my student had caught him in the act was quite priceless. Bottom line, people really don't like being manipulated. Turns out the guy had a rap sheet a mile long for fraud. And he lied about that too in his interview.

As for martial applications, it all clicked there one morning a few years ago when we were using the internal organs as focus point for some fah jing work. I noticed that the practice made my organs move in a way that great resembled the five healing sounds and shih shui gung. After that I started making some connections that my teacher had attempted to hammer into us for quite some time, but I'd never really gotten. The rest is history.

[robert]

The 5 element work is basically a Chinese take on Kabbalah.

The one advantage to a 5 element vs 4 element model is that it avoids development of a state we refer to as "equilibrium" in Hermetics and as such is safe for use by lay practitioners.

It depends on how you view it. One meaning of taiji is equilibrium or balance. The character ji 極 in taiji can mean ridgepole.


If the sun is on one side of the roof one side is bright and the other is in shade, yang and yin, and the ridgepole is where they meet. It is the balance of yin and yang.

Zhongding - central equilibrium is an important concept in taiji.

Regarding the 5 phases Zhou Dunyi wrote

The alternation and combination of yang and yin generate water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. With these five [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them.

Zhu Xi comments

With the Supreme Polarity there is the alternation of activity and stillness, and the Two Modes are distinguished; with yin and yang the alternation and combination of the Five Phases are set. But the material of the Five Phases is set in earth, and qi is what circulates through heaven. Speaking of the sequence of their generation in terms of their material we should say, "Water, fire, wood, metal, and earth," with water and wood as yang, and fire and metal as yin. Speaking of the sequence of their circulation in terms of qi we should say, "wood, water, earth, metal, and fire," with wood and fire as yang, and metal and water as yin. In terms of their alternation, this is the active yang and still yin. Thus the alternation of the Five Phases is inexhaustible, so nothing happens that is not the Way of yin and yang. As for what makes them yin and yang, nothing happens that is not the original nature of the Supreme Polarity. How can there be any deficiency or discontinuity!

With these five [phases of] qi harmoniously arranged, the Four Seasons proceed through them.

But the material of the Five Phases is set in earth, and qi is what circulates through heaven.

So earth is put in the center. It is central equilibrium.



Note the arrangement of the 5 phases in the center of the diagram.
Regarding Kabbalah note that the taijitu resembles the Tree of Life, but it is earlier and devoid of superstition.

[GrahamB]

I don’t feel at home on this thread.

[Bao]

It depends on how you view it. One meaning of taiji is equilibrium or balance. The character ji 極 in taiji can mean ridgepole.

Not really. "Taiji" actually means the opposite of equilibrium. It means "too much" or "past" the limit. It means that when something reaches it's limit it turns to its opposite. In this philosophy, regardless if you look at Zhou Yi, Zhu xi or or at the Yijing, there's no equilibrium. There's no true balance point between Yin or yang. Everything is in constant change, so yin or yang will always take over one and each other.

For Zhouyi, Taiji is an underlying force working like a pendulum, giving birth to Yin and Yang, and also make Yin and Yang constantly change into the other. And in the Yijing, when something looks balanced, you must always take precautions and be very careful. There can never be a complete standstill.

[robert]

Practically when I do taiji I maintain zhongding. I maintain balance. I do not not go past the limit. If yang reaches the limit it becomes yin, if yin reaches the limit it becomes yang. It sounds like you have a different approach.

[Giles]

I’m not qualified to talk sensibly about some of what is being discussed here. But as regards Taiji / Yin+Yang: surely the most important thing about Taiji – as is so clearly represented by the famous symbol – is that it describes a form of balance or equilibrium that is however NOT equal to stasis. It’s not about a kind of balance in which there’s a single point or fulcrum, like a see-saw (teeter-totter) that has come to a halt with both sides off the ground. As Bao remarks, “There's no true balance point between Yin or yang. Everything is in constant change, so yin or yang will always take over one and each other.” Certainly, but if you move up to the next level, take a step back, then – as the symbol indicates – it is a form of perfect balance that actually permits constant change and transformation. A healthy living organic body is described as being in “homeostatis” – constantly being affected by external (and indeed internal) changes, constantly responding to these, constantly breaking down substances and building new ones, absorbing and emitting, often moving its position in the world, finding new solutions – and in this way basically staying the same. ‘The same’ in the sense of still healthy, still alive. Not diseased, not dead. “Keeping balance” doesn’t mean “being deep-frozen”. Maybe more like dancing and not falling over. Or being able to fall and recover. That’s an ideal condition, of course, which never completely corresponds to reality even when things are going well. But Taiji is an ideal concept/condition, too.

[wayne hansen]

You know a threa on something as simple as 5 phases has gone astray when heretics,hypnotism and Jo rogan are bought into the conversation
The 5 phases are for simplicity
It is not about how they move the organs
It's about how they work the spinal segments that activate the organs

[Bao]

Practically when I do taiji I maintain zhongding. I maintain balance. I do not not go past the limit. If yang reaches the limit it becomes yin, if yin reaches the limit it becomes yang. It sounds like you have a different approach.

I am not speaking about TAIJIQUAN. I spoke about TAIJI, the philosophical term. I only stated exactly how Zhouyi described his term in his own Text Taijitu Shuo, Explanation of the Taiji Diagram.

Taiji is also the name of the Yin Yang symbol, but yin and yang is not the same as the original meaning of the name Taiji. How you interprete yin and yang in Taijiquan is not always the same as what Yin and yang means in the original Taiji concept.

[robert]

But as regards Taiji / Yin+Yang: surely the most important thing about Taiji – as is so clearly represented by the famous symbol – is that it describes a form of balance or equilibrium that is however NOT equal to stasis.

I agree - as is so clearly represented by the famous symbol – is that it describes a form of balance or equilibrium that is however NOT equal to stasis. If you have a balance (scale) where the arm is movable there can be different weights on each side by adjusting the balance point on the arm. If you can change the weights and the balance arm you can maintain balance dynamically - the system could be constantly changing and yet maintain balance.

[robert]

I am not speaking about TAIJIQUAN. I spoke about TAIJI, the philosophical term. I only stated exactly how Zhouyi described his term in his own Text Taijitu Shuo, Explanation of the Taiji Diagram.

The name Taijiquan comes from the philosophical concept. I find they inform each other. YMMV.

[everything]

The connections between different kinds of movement and qigong and the TCM ideas (or TCM and qigong in general) become much more clear when you are not feeling well. When I had a diseased gallbladder and the resulting digestion issues, I could easily feel "qi blockage", as one example. Literally it felt like things were not flowing smoothly.

When you feel fine or have never felt bad, it's easy to think this is all b.s., or start making shit up about what "balance" and so on mean, or only think about biomechanical balances as if we are only mechanical machines. I don't have a problem with that for a lot of things, e.g., a golf swing. Your biomechanics for that golf swing truly need to be nearly perfect. Half an inch off and your shot is totally screwed.

But for IMAs that talk about TCM and qigong connections, it's interesting to dig into these more "internal" goings on a little bit. Once you feel something there is broken, it's easier to start feeling what things should feel like when they are back to normal. But I'm no expert and it's easy for me to look at TCM's (and xingyiquan's) 5 elements theory and think it makes no sense whatsoever.

On the taijiquan tangent, it's also really interesting how totally different trying 5 elements feels after mostly doing taijiquan, even if some people say these techniques are in taijiquan. The approach, attitude, intent, etc., feels different, e.g., more linear, direct, concise, attacking, etc., etc.

But as I said in my questions, I'm not really asking about trying to understand or discuss the MA aspect (even if we say focusing there provides most of the benefit, and yeah it's ok on an MA board if you only want to talk about that. But I'm trying to get into the TCM/qigong areas).

[greytowhite]

If you don't want to buy the whole Kunlun Nei Gung book you can get this.

http://primordialalchemist.com/blog/fiv ... the-store/

[dspyrido]

You know a threa on something as simple as 5 phases has gone astray when heretics,hypnotism and Jo rogan are bought into the conversation

I think you meant hermetics but heretics came out. Which is the perfect statement.

All you people talking about magic stuff here are heretics!

The 5 phases are for simplicity
It is not about how they move the organs
It's about how they work the spinal segments that activate the organs

I mean that just makes sense right? How can it be seen otherwise?

Of all you magic users posting here please let us know how many of you actually do Xingyi and if the mystical "technology" is something you were taught.

Don't get me wrong - if you like to pursue mysticism then you do what you do. No problem there. I'm just trying to understand how much of this is from traditional Xingyi vs. personal extrapolation. Or just clarity that this is 5 element theory vs. Xingyi martial arts.

[GrahamB]

Are you kidding? You and Wayne as bad as the magic flower people - lol

"spinal segments activate organs"

If you're organs are not activated, you're dead, so can you run that one by me again?