Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:40 am

Peacedog - that was all quite reasonable, until you spiralled into a bizarre conspiracy theory about MMA guys keeping their TMA backgrounds secret.

Oh, and Tony Ferguson has been repping Wing Chun in the UFC for ages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7awWIgSMfI4

One does not simply post on RSF.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby Peacedog on Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:48 am

They weren't keeping it a secret so much as not promoting it. Mainly because they didn't want to be made fun of by other MMA guys.

I'd say more often than not people got their start in karate, judo, tae kwon do, etc. MMA is a business and in business you have to meet certain cultural norms. For a long time it was discouraged to talk about involvement in those older arts. Ferguson has been more outspoken about his background than most.

The goal of MMA is to promote MMA. Not to promote club level judo.

Cross-training is old as dirt. And your better competitors in most leagues (tae kwon do, judo, karate, muay thai, etc.) almost always have backgrounds in multiple arts. They promote the art that their league is involved in.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby everything on Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:55 am

for that matter most of the top athletes in different sports have a good background in multiple sports. it's kind of a "duh" fact, but nerdy people make too much of it in MA boards as well as in "sports science".
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:44 pm

More well thought through points. Who would have thought on rsf???

In contemplating this I thought self defence was a big motivator. I thought martial ability with a amazing practitioner was important. I thought a style and what it offers from a holistic training ability was a motivator.

In chatting with others I think i was wrong or at least projecting.

In a chat it came up that many teens+ get their curious about this thing called martial arts, maybe ask a friend or the internet and pop into a local.

So I have a theory.

To get them in:

1. I guess location location location is important. On reflection it makes sense & is the reason why mall strip martial arts exist.
2. Like location it's also about being front of mind in brand. If so and so famous person does it then I should look into it. If enough people say it's the best then it must be the best.

Then it seems to be a few patterns to keep them going but it's about making people feel good:

1. Do a sanitised structured training program & we will give you a little strip or a new colour belt. Achievement unlocked.
2. Look fabulous and feel deadly. Do these moves and you will look great, get fit, feel more deadly than training cross fit.
3. Do X art & you can unlock a skill. One you feel gives you an edge that can impress others with. Even just mentioning you do X style gets the effect. Confidence booster.

I know this is not about everyone but I'm thinking it seems to be the majority falls into this sort of thing.

Is this about right or am I off track?
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:32 pm

For each and every IMA theory, I like to check whether it truly works or not.

For example, the IMA principle of "not sweating". 10 minutes ago, I just did jab, cross, hook, hook combo 300 times non-stop (4 x 300 = 1200 punches). It's 47 degree outside and I felt that I started to sweat. I may train in slow speed and not sweat. But can I train in regular speed and not sweat, I don't think I can.

Can you drill tornado kick 60 times non-stop and not sweat? I don't think you can either. The reason is simple. You can't do tornado kick in slow speed. So if a principle only applies in slow speed training, how useful is it?

IMO, some IMA principles are just not realistic.

A: You should not sweat.
B: How can I not sweat after I have pushed my car uphill for 2 miles.

A: You should not bend your head down.
B: But there is a $100 bill on the ground.

A: You should not use brute force.
B: How can I lift my safe box by myself without using brute force?
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:35 pm

Subitai wrote:2) Assuming my main goal is to "Slant Fly" ala knock someone backward off their feet.

IMO, the main value of the "slant fly" is not in offense but in defense. You can use it to push your opponent back. But can you end fight by this move? It will be difficult.

It's the best move to be used to interrupt your opponent's who tries to move behind you. You use straight line to interrupt his circular move.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby edededed on Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:06 pm

Bao wrote:
edededed wrote:.
- Kung fu? Weird and strange - perfect!

Others will choose others for other choices. :)


Exactly. Something like that for me as well. Had never heard about Tai Chi Chuan. But it sounded good when it was described for me, like a much more complete system than other martial arts as Karate or Judo, as it had everything as punches, kicks, take-downs and even weapons. It also sounded intellectual and philosophical, and similar to Aikido, it was supposed to make use of the opponent's own strength. It all appealed to me. And I was deeply impressed when I met my teacher.


Yeah - the many aspects of IMA (not only combat, but philosophy, medicine, etc.) is part of its unique appeal. I think that this is also one reason that RSF has such an interesting mix of people and discussions - that would be hard to find elsewhere.

Peacedog wrote:Now what I'm not worried about is the authorities getting together 300 guys and burning my house while running me out of town. Thankfully those days are over. But it is what it is.


That is definitely a positive! In general, still it may be good to not be too visible, and to avoid over-zealous communities... :-\ Using more-accepted words like "yoga" is probably better than "magician," etc., too...
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby everything on Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:47 pm

Confidence and self esteem are always good.

I just “inherited” it because it was my first MA from Dad.

Intellectual stimulation is good.

The cannot be pushed and mysterious pushing thing is what “hooked” me permanently. Plus the TCM overlap (after entering middle age). The stuff people even here haven’t encountered or think is fake or won’t work etc. Despite all that, it’s much more fascinating than perfect athletics or mechanics (which are fascinating already).
Last edited by everything on Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:56 pm

edededed wrote: the many aspects of IMA (not only combat, but philosophy, medicine, etc.) is part of its unique appeal.

Do people want to develop some skill through their life time?

I just read one of Adam Hsu's books "千里不留行 CMA tour in China". He and my CMA training path are very similar.

Adam's path: long fist (foundation) -> preying mantis (application) -> Baji (power generation) -> Chen Taiji (Adam spent 10 years on this)

My path: long fist (foundation) -> preying mantis (application) -> Baji (power generation) -> Shuai Chiao (throwing skill)

We both started with learning lot of long fist forms. We didn't know most of the application, We cross trained preying mantis to understand the application. We didn't have faith in long fist and preying mantis power generation, we cross trained Baji. Adam branched out to Chen Taiji. I branched out to Shuai Chiao.

We both try to understand northern CMA in more detail and hope to be able to develop some dependable CMA skill through our live time. The only philosophy that I remember is to act like a tiger when in the ring/mat. To act like a sheep when not in the ring/mat. The only medicine that I remember is the formula for iron palm training.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby edededed on Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:52 pm

johnwang wrote:
edededed wrote: the many aspects of IMA (not only combat, but philosophy, medicine, etc.) is part of its unique appeal.

Do people want to develop some skill through their life time?


Hopefully - yes!

But your and Adam's path does sound like a better way to achieve it.

In a sense, since you both were already naturally immersed in Chinese culture, the philosophy, etc. may not have had as much appeal. Of course training with main emphasis on combat effectiveness should result in more combat effectiveness. (Much respect to your for your achievements, not only in CMA but also in computer science, too!)

But how do you think you were able to maintain your interest in CMA?

I also did some longfist of some sort in the past, I also did not really understand how to use it!
I tried some mantis later on, it was like a quicker, less extended longfist with clear applications.

Never had the opportunity to try baji, Chen taiji, or shuaijiao though.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:03 pm

edededed wrote:But how do you think you were able to maintain your interest in CMA?

Today when I trained my jab, cross, hook, hook combo non-stop for 300 times, the energy started to flow through my body. I felt I was 20 years old again. That kind of great feeling maintain my interest in CMA.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby edededed on Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:15 am

But - you could perhaps get that same feeling from boxing, right?

I was curious how you could maintain your strong interest in Chinese martial arts specifically for so long.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:21 am

edededed wrote:But - you could perhaps get that same feeling from boxing, right?

I was curious how you could maintain your strong interest in Chinese martial arts specifically for so long.

To me, punch is punch, there is no difference between long fist punch, preying mantis punch, Baji punch, and boxing punch. What I like about CMA punch is a punch is a punch followed by a pull (most boxing doesn't have the pulling concept).

When you get into skill development, you will find out that there are over 62 categories of throws (over 230 throws total and not even include combos). For example, there are over 35 different kind of foot sweep. Each throw all require different set up. When you get into skill development into this level, everyday will be a new day and you will always come up with new idea. If I can come up with a new way to set up a technique (entering strategy), I'll smile in my dream for 3 nights. Even money won't be able to buy that kind of happiness.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:24 pm

JW you have a toolbox. We've never met but let's assume you know how train and build a student to great levels in the toolbox. Do you have 100s+ students? If not why?

Don't take the question in the wrong way. I can think of several really capable, knowledgeable and proven instructors in martial arts with generally small groups of students. I can also think of a lot more that have many students that would not have a chance against the 1st group.

I guess there's a point where it's about either being business minded or letting a business person take over the operations.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:49 pm

dspyrido wrote:JW you have a toolbox. We've never met but let's assume you know how train and build a student to great levels in the toolbox. Do you have 100s+ students? If not why?

I have taught UT Austin informal Kung Fu class for 15 years. Each semester, I have 50 new students. 15 x 2 x 50 = 1500. I have not included students from my MA school (Peishaolin Kung Fu Institute) yet.

Chinese believe after a teacher brought a student indoor, the rest is all up to that person. I don't agree with that approach. If a teacher expect a student to discover everything by himself, why does that person need a teacher for?
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