Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:22 pm

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:why would anyone want to take this to the grave?

Even if my teacher tried to keep "Tie" as a secret, his brother didn't mind to release that information to the public. This make "keeping secret" to be a big joke.

Principle: You attack one of your opponent's leg, you then attack his other leg.

If we use computer to generate all the possibility, we can always find the secret of "Tie" which is as simple as

- spring, shin bite, or
- spring, ankle pick, or
- spring, knee seize, or
- spring, foot sweep, or
- ...

This is why I start to use my mind as a computer. I may be able to generate more meaningful combos than our ancient masters all combined.

- Input all tools.
- Let computer to generate all meaningful combo.

Image


I don't think it's easy to keep anything that is visible secret these days.



But let's keep IMA secret. 8-)
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2290
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby edededed on Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:21 pm

johnwang wrote:

Even if my teacher tried to keep "Tie" as a secret, his brother didn't mind to release that information to the public. This make "keeping secret" to be a big joke.

Principle: You attack one of your opponent's leg, you then attack his other leg.
Image[/quote]

If people see "tie" the secret would be gone - did your teacher avoid ever demonstrating or using the technique to keep the secret?

But if so, he then cannot use the technique in any matches (with people around)...
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3990
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:36 pm

edededed wrote:If people see "tie" the secret would be gone - did your teacher avoid ever demonstrating or using the technique to keep the secret?

But if so, he then cannot use the technique in any matches (with people around)...

He had never demonstrated that technique in public.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9371
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby edededed on Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:01 am

johnwang wrote:
edededed wrote:If people see "tie" the secret would be gone - did your teacher avoid ever demonstrating or using the technique to keep the secret?

But if so, he then cannot use the technique in any matches (with people around)...

He had never demonstrated that technique in public.


I see - so in that sense he was prevented from using it (except maybe when practicing with his brother).

Seems a bit of a waste, but I guess it was his "insurance" just in case he needed it.
User avatar
edededed
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3990
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:21 am

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:59 pm

marvin8 wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Don’t sweat it - Kung Fu is about to be made great again:

https://www.dynastyclothingstore.com/bl ... rgence-mma

Yes. Make IMA or kung fu great again by not only talking and demos but by showing real fighting skills too.

Zhang Weili (e.g., taiji, shuai jiao, sanda) may be one of those leading the way:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJqgaTYYuSg


Great fighters = popularity? Something's missing. Main styles for these guys:

fedor - sambo, judo
Khabib - sambo, pankration
Demetrius J - pankration, wrestler

Some of the best mma guys ever who sit in most top 10 lists.

In popularity how does Sambo or pankration rank against Twd, Bjj or karate?

Great fighters might make a style visible but it seems to need something more to make ordinary mortals want to sign up & stick around.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2290
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby marvin8 on Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:23 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
GrahamB wrote:Don’t sweat it - Kung Fu is about to be made great again:

https://www.dynastyclothingstore.com/bl ... rgence-mma

Yes. Make IMA or kung fu great again by not only talking and demos but by showing real fighting skills too.

Zhang Weili (e.g., taiji, shuai jiao, sanda) may be one of those leading the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJqgaTYYuSg


Great fighters = popularity?

Yes. They are more popular than fighters that don't fight or constantly lose.

dspyrido wrote:Something's missing. Main styles for these guys:

fedor - sambo, judo
Khabib - sambo, pankration
Demetrius J - pankration, wrestler

Some of the best mma guys ever who sit in most top 10 lists.

The "best MMA guys" evolved by adopting current MMA training methods, strategies and philosophy rather than relying on just the style(s) they began with.

dspyrido wrote:In popularity how does Sambo or pankration rank against Twd, Bjj or karate?

Today, individual styles are not emphasized as much as they were in the early UFC days. Many people don't know or care about fighters' styles. People are interested in good fighters period, not just good internal, external, sambo, pankration, tkd, etc., fighters.

dspyrido wrote:Great fighters might make a style visible but it seems to need something more to make ordinary mortals want to sign up & stick around.

You seem to be asking more than one question. To get students to sign up & stay it depends what service you are providing and what your target market is. Most people join a martial art class to defend themselves in a fight. Late teens and adults are more willing to train with aliveness: movement, timing and energy. Young kids and the elderly may be attracted to more traditional training (e.g., forms, push hands, etc.).

GrahamB's article covered how to "make IMA great" in detail:

Dynasty Team wrote:Let this be a message to all practitioners out there of Chinese Martial Arts / Kung Fu:

We must do better. We must be better.

We must train the arts with the intent to fight with it, with the intent of killing with it, and train with the intensity and purpose of that of a professional combat sports athlete.

We must spar full contact, learn to adapt, evolve, and use it effectively for the modern era of fighting.

That is the only way we can keep Kung Fu alive, relevant, and real.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:23 pm

It's the nature of the topic that results in asking many questions.

Anyway let's see how Zhang goes. Another first round knockout? Who knows but the question still remains - will it increase the popularity of cma? Either way it makes the fight even more interesting.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2290
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby marvin8 on Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:33 pm

Great fighters might make a style visible but it seems to need something more to make ordinary mortals want to sign up & stick around.

dspyrido wrote:It's the nature of the topic that results in asking many questions.

I meant your statement may be two different topics. Fedor, Khabib, Demetrius J, Conor McGregor, Bruce Lee ("the grandfather of MMA"), Ronda Rousey and Zhang Weili became great or popular by not limiting themselves to one style. However, their popularity may have made a particular style (e.g., karate, muay thai, judo, wing chun) more popular (e.g., Bruce Lee and wing chun). Ronda Rousey made judo popular until she was exposed by her lack of boxing skills. This made women's MMA evolve into more well rounded fighters, not limiting themselves to a particular "style."

Why was Bruce Lee and his films so popular? One difference is his films were more realistic (e.g., using techniques and strategies used in today's MMA) than the bridging, freezing (patty cake) and secret technique training shown by his predecessors.

It is up to the "IMA or other style teacher" to show their one style can provide the same fighting skills (e.g., fighting, not only talking and demoing) or better if they want to "make their style great or popular."

dspyrido wrote:Anyway let's see how Zhang goes. Another first round knockout? Who knows but the question still remains - will it increase the popularity of cma? Either way it makes the fight even more interesting.

MMA can "increase the popularity of CMA" with millions of dollars in promotion, sales, salaries, bonuses, ESPN, social media, etc. But, it is up to an IMA or CMA stylist to show their "style's" fighting skills are "great."

One problem of CMA popularity in the public's eye is there is no fighting video of any IMA or CMA stylist showing superior fighting skills as claimed (e.g., more power, shen fa, whole body, fajing, trapping, relaxed, one inch punch etc.). However, there are several videos of "external" MMA fighters showing similar attributes in fighting.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:22 pm

Donnie Yen & WC?
i guess cma can be popular, portrayed unrealistically and not be proven in mma sports comps.

Regarding whole body, shenfa etc why can't 'external' mma fighters do it and rediscover what was being described by ima masters? After all the ima/cma guys were meant to train hard, long hours & the so called external mma guys are the same. They also are also looking for any edge they can get so are constantly looking to enhance what they do wherever they find it.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2290
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:45 pm

If you have watched the UFC fight last night between Zhang Weili and Joanna Jedrzejczyk, what will you do any differently if you are an "internal" guy?
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9371
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby Dmitri on Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:52 pm

dspyrido wrote:So your mission - make it popular again! How would you do it?

Walk into an MMA gym and spar with people and do better than them. Then do the same in a couple more random MMA gyms. If your IMA can do it, it'll become popular.
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9638
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:54 pm

dspyrido wrote:Donnie Yen & WC?
i guess cma can be popular, portrayed unrealistically and not be proven in mma sports comps.

Regarding whole body, shenfa etc why can't 'external' mma fighters do it and rediscover what was being described by ima masters? After all the ima/cma guys were meant to train hard, long hours & the so called external mma guys are the same. They also are also looking for any edge they can get so are constantly looking to enhance what they do wherever they find it.

Shouldn't you be asking, "Why can't 'internal' fighters do it?" After all, ima/cma trains hard, long hours (e.g., forms, etc.) in whole body, shenfa etc. Yet again, there is no fight video of "internal" fighters doing anything different from "external" fighters.

That could answer your questions "Make it popular again! How would you do it? What is the missing element from IMA?"
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2042
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:01 pm

Joy! Let's pick them all off together.

johnwang wrote:If you have watched the UFC fight last night between Zhang Weili and Joanna Jedrzejczyk, what will you do any differently if you are an "internal" guy?


Didn't we do this topic to death in that other 30 page long thread? As mentioned ... you can't have one without the other & external vs. internal just goes together. I don't believe in magically sending someone away or touch and don't move "internal" style antics. I guess you would appreciate what I call IMA and everyone else will just say ... pffftt not internal!

Dmitri wrote:Walk into an MMA gym and spar with people and do better than them. Then do the same in a couple more random MMA gyms. If your IMA can do it, it'll become popular.


The days of carrying "sick men of Asian" signs into gyms don't really work for promoting a school or style. It may boost the number of facebook followers but it will also end up messy with the law.

But let's just say I do. I walk in & join up. I start to push people around. Maybe crack a nose or rib of a sparring partner. Do you think my IMA will become more popular? Honestly 99% of the time the amateurs won't have a clue other than "This guy is good" or " He is dangerous let's avoid". The coaches will be very likely saying "I need to get rid of this guy as he's bad for my business". If they're not then it's probably a hardcore guy who probably only has a few hardcore students. Now if I do all this & don't run a school & don't crazy promote then what will it prove?

marvin8 wrote:Shouldn't you be asking, "Why can't 'internal' fighters do it?" After all, ima/cma trains hard, long hours (e.g., forms, etc.) in whole body, shenfa etc. Yet again, there is no fight video of "internal" fighters doing anything different from "external" fighters.

That could answer your questions "Make it popular again! How would you do it? What is the missing element from IMA?"


Do you do IMA? Why do you do it? Why not point out the points you like?

As for the rest of the points - see the above where I just think the two unite regardless. My IMA experience is definitely not a slow form in the park. To quote my departed sifu - lower, longer, faster & vicious. Even when I do mma I know I have a lot of things under my belt that help me keep alive on a mat/cage/ring at my age. Plus I have a bunch of moves I cannot use that I learnt in "IMA". That said I know my mma coach also has a bunch of "too deadly for the ring" methods. Worlds do collide.


Now - let me rephrase the question.

It's your gym & you practice IMA (at least I assume you do being on this site). You want to build your business & student base. How are you going to do it? Will you do random MMA challenges? Will you hypothesise "why internal IMA guys can't fight" or question that there IMA does not exist? ???

BTW I don't run a school. With all the stuff I have in life I like being a perpetual student who only gives tips to others when it comes up. This question has been kicked around a few IMA people I know and thought it's a good question to ask. Who knows it might help others who want to go through the pain of running an IMA school.

Oh & to add to all this - from what I see & it may vary ... MMA schools are nowhere near as popular as Twd, karate, bjj, kickboxing & well.. WC. Even the hardcore wrestling, boxing, competitive kickboxing/MT & MMA gyms run more the more popular styles which feeds the competitive machine. From the MMA gyms I know they themselves would have a smaller cross over of students who like to do both a striking style and grappling style together. Many students like to just focus on one area.
Last edited by dspyrido on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2290
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby everything on Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:30 pm

didn't see that fight. looks like a brutal and great kickboxing match. if you have any "internal" skill, you are probably well past the expiration date to try to do pro mma, lol. not really sure why we never state the obvious. ??? ::) :P :-\ :-[ ;D
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5459
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:50 pm

everything wrote:didn't see that fight. looks like a brutal and great kickboxing match. if you have any "internal" skill, you are probably well past the expiration date to try to do pro mma, lol. not really sure why we never state the obvious. ??? ::) :P :-\ :-[ ;D

This is the main issue of the IMA. It takes too long to develop any usable skill.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9371
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests