Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby Taste of Death on Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:19 pm

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:didn't see that fight. looks like a brutal and great kickboxing match. if you have any "internal" skill, you are probably well past the expiration date to try to do pro mma, lol. not really sure why we never state the obvious. ??? ::) :P :-\ :-[ ;D

This is the main issue of the IMA. It takes too long to develop any usable skill.


It's not that it takes too long. It's that only old guys are interested.

MMA is like rugby. IMA is like golf.

In rugby one tackles the ball carrier. In golf one hits one's playing partner over the head with a club when he disturbs the lie of one's ball.

Both methods are effective.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby everything on Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:36 am

those are really great analogies. lol
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby Tom on Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:25 am

Listen to Rafe Kelley and Rory Miller in dialogue (even wind-obscured), and you will quickly discern some of the key elements that CIMAs (and many "traditional" martial arts) may lack with respect to effective training:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRWwFnNmbJE
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:46 pm

dspyrido wrote:
Dmitri wrote:Walk into an MMA gym and spar with people and do better than them. Then do the same in a couple more random MMA gyms. If your IMA can do it, it'll become popular.


The days of carrying "sick men of Asian" signs into gyms don't really work for promoting a school or style. It may boost the number of facebook followers but it will also end up messy with the law.

But let's just say I do. I walk in & join up. I start to push people around. Maybe crack a nose or rib of a sparring partner. Do you think my IMA will become more popular? Honestly 99% of the time the amateurs won't have a clue other than "This guy is good" or " He is dangerous let's avoid". The coaches will be very likely saying "I need to get rid of this guy as he's bad for my business". If they're not then it's probably a hardcore guy who probably only has a few hardcore students. Now if I do all this & don't run a school & don't crazy promote then what will it prove?

Dmitri simply said spar (training) while showing your different IMA skills, not use your too deadly techniques and get removed from an open sparring session.

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Shouldn't you be asking, "Why can't 'internal' fighters do it?" After all, ima/cma trains hard, long hours (e.g., forms, etc.) in whole body, shenfa etc. Yet again, there is no fight video of "internal" fighters doing anything different from "external" fighters.

That could answer your questions "Make it popular again! How would you do it? What is the missing element from IMA?"

Now - let me rephrase the question.

It's your gym & you practice IMA (at least I assume you do being on this site). You want to build your business & student base. How are you going to do it? Will you do random MMA challenges? Will you hypothesise why internal IMA guys can't fight" or question that there IMA does not exist? ???

That was your question/hypothesis. If one wants to make IMA popular or great, it is an internal fighters' burden to show those IMA attributes and skills ("described by ima masters") in a "fight."

An answer was already given in the posted article and replies: apply "IMA" skills in an alive environment (timing, motion, energy) to make IMA "great" or "popular." If you disagree, please discuss your alternative way to make IMA popular/great.

dspyrido wrote:BTW I don't run a school. With all the stuff I have in life I like being a perpetual student who only gives tips to others when it comes up. This question has been kicked around a few IMA people I know and thought it's a good question to ask. Who knows it might help others who want to go through the pain of running an IMA school.

Zhong Luo is an CMAist who started by showing effective CMA skills in sparring people and continues to run a successful MA school. Like other great fighters, Zhong does not promote only one particular style. He teaches/coaches people how to apply martial skills in actual fights.

A podcast interview, Sifu Zhong Luo of Dragon House MMA:
The Bay Area Martial Arts Podcast wrote:Wade has a special, “historical” interview today with Sifu Zhong Luo, the owner and founder of Dragon House MMA.

Zhong Luo has been training in the martial arts since he was a kid because his dad was a well-known professional martial artist back in China. When Zhong came to the States he ended up having a story somewhat reminiscent of Bruce Lee’s. He started out bussing tables, showed a couple people that he knew martial arts, and within a couple of months he had started his own school here in San Francisco. As he’s developed and grown the school he’s morphed it into an MMA school and ended up becoming one of the first MMA schools in the Bay Area.

Today Zhong Luo tells the story of his father and his background as a professional martial artist in China, his own background as a martial artist and the journey to opening up his own school, and how and why he transitioned his school from a traditional Kung-Fu school to an MMA school. He also talks about his experience training MMA fighters, how martial arts has affected his life outside the school, and his thoughts on the recent Conor vs. Khabib fighter!


Excerpt from "Dragon House:"
Dragon House wrote:The School

The MMA
The hub of Southern SF

Dragon House is a 4000 sq ft mixed martial arts (MMA) facility. Located in San Francisco’s Outer Mission District. We have an extensive curriculum in all forms of MMA. From Sanshou Kickboxing, Mongolian wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and grappling. At the Dragon House MMA gym we train all aspects of MMA as well as other fighting systems. Sifu Luo's roots stem from traditional Chinese Kung Fu and teaches both the Bak Mei (White Eyebrow) and Lung Ying (Dragon) styles. We also train in weapons attack and defense, and general body conditioning. Dragon House welcomes all levels of athletes and martial arts enthusiasts from hobbyist to professional competitors.

Dragon House is a good environment, we practice safely, respect each other, and all have a love for martial arts one way or another. Come visit us today.

Highlights

• Full MMA Gym
• Over 4,000 sq.ft of training space.
• 8 panel MMA training cage.
Traditional Chinese Kung Fu
• Chinese Sanshou
• Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Mongolian Wrestling
• Men, Women, and Kids Classes


RSF thread "Sifu Zhong Luo's School - White Eye Brow."
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:30 pm

marvin8 wrote:Dmitri simply said spar (training) while showing your different IMA skills, not use your too deadly techniques and get removed from an open sparring session.


Pretty sure i explained i am not doing this for me but FWIW i do drop into schools & spar. Also still do tournaments of many different formats making it even more random.

But with this logic a skilled twd, karate or bjj stylist who wants to promote their style should simply drop in and spar in a school to show there skills?? And this is going to help promote to others not doing their style in a restricted sparring range??

But let's make it mma. You think random sparring in an mma gym & winning will leave people mystified with ima?

marvin8 wrote:That was your question/hypothesis. If one wants to make IMA popular or great, It an internal fighters' burden to show those IMA attributes and skills ("described by ima masters") in a "fight."


Nope. I know several masters with big schools. I've never seen them step up to a mat for a tournament. They would easily be eaten alive in an amateur mma scenario but that does not stop them from having several successful schools.

I've also known several top notch guys with small schools of student who could eat them alive. The missing element is definitely not martial skill or ability.

marvin8 wrote:Zhong Luo is an CMAist who started by showing effective CMA skills in sparring people and continues to run a successful MA school. Like other great fighters, Zhong does not promote only one particular style. He teaches/coaches people how to apply martial skills in actual fights.

A podcast interview, Sifu Zhong Luo of Dragon House MMA:



So your answer to make ima great is to make it an mma gym with totally unrelated styles?

Why stop their? If twd, karate, mt and bjj are popular why not teach twd, karate, mt & bjj? We could have ima as a footnote in the directory listing of styles right next to yoga or morris dancing.

Begin slow clap now....
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:16 pm

This is one of my favor combos. I taught this combo in my last class. As an "internal" guy, how will you do this combo any different?

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:31 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Dmitri simply said spar (training) while showing your different IMA skills, not use your too deadly techniques and get removed from an open sparring session.


Pretty sure i explained i am not doing this for me but FWIW i do drop into schools & spar. Also still do tournaments of many different formats making it even more random.

But with this logic a skilled twd, karate or bjj stylist who wants to promote their style should simply drop in and spar in a school to show there skills?? And this is going to help promote to others not doing their style in a restricted sparring range??

In YOUR opinion, what is going to "help promote to others not doing their style??"

dspyrido wrote:But let's make it mma. You think random sparring in an mma gym & winning will leave people mystified with ima?

In YOUR opinion, what "will leave people mystified with ima?"

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:That was your question/hypothesis. If one wants to make IMA popular or great, It an internal fighters' burden to show those IMA attributes and skills ("described by ima masters") in a "fight."


Nope. I know several masters with big schools. I've never seen them step up to a mat for a tournament. They would easily be eaten alive in an amateur mma scenario but that does not stop them from having several successful schools.

In YOUR opinion, why do "several masters have several successful schools?"

dspyrido wrote:I've also known several top notch guys with small schools of student who could eat them alive. The missing element is definitely not martial skill or ability.

In YOUR opinion if it is "definitely not martial skill or ability." then what is it?

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Zhong Luo is an CMAist who started by showing effective CMA skills in sparring people and continues to run a successful MA school. Like other great fighters, Zhong does not promote only one particular style. He teaches/coaches people how to apply martial skills in actual fights.

A podcast interview, Sifu Zhong Luo of Dragon House MMA:



So your answer to make ima great is to make it an mma gym with totally unrelated styles?

In YOUR opinion, what is your answer "to make ima great?"
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:46 pm

marvin8 wrote:In YOUR opinion, what is your answer "to make ima great?"

1. Define the content in your toolbox.
2. Develop the tools in your toolbox.
3. Make your toolbox internal.

My concern is after you have reached stage 2, do you truly need stage 3 at all?

If you can use this combo to take down everybody on this planet, do you care whether you are doing "internal" or not?

Image
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby Strange on Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:25 pm

John, it surely looks very impressive
however, i do feel that between the first and second move of this "combo"
one's head is ENTIRELY exposes to the right hand of the opponent
for me i cannot be so fast
but for those who can move faster than me, i can see how this is not a concern
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:34 pm

marvin8 wrote:In YOUR opinion, what is your answer "to make ima great?"


Of course it's MY opinion. Most post are opinion or referencing someone else's opinion.

What i see for the success is a combination of many ideas posted here and most of it falls into business vs style.

At the school level it's not too hard to draw parallels with twd, karate and bjj.

Brand, location, a curriculum, rewards in the form of belts, moderate testing, charismatic instructor, consistency, self reinforced belief in what it being taught and training environment.

To attract the average person it's about brand. Some do it on their individual reputation others do it on the reputation effect of the style.

Once a student gets to a school it's the other stuff that relates to the customer (student) experience.

An IMA school would need to boost the profile through word and mouth (slow), traditional advertising or online promotion (fast). Winning a tournament does not help as much as promoting the win (among other things).

Beyond the school it's unification of the message. Get 10 schools to work together to promote and you have a reputation effect. Get 100 and it's a movement. 1000 and it's global.

I guess IMA is doomed.

Oh and this just IMO.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:52 pm

johnwang wrote:1. Define the content in your toolbox.
2. Develop the tools in your toolbox.
3. Make your toolbox internal.


This is really good. It is the advanced journey that most don't get to which is to make what they have learnt their own.

johnwang wrote:My concern is after you have reached stage 2, do you truly need stage 3 at all?

If you can use this combo to take down everybody on this planet, do you care whether you are doing "internal" or not?


Let's not say need but in order to have a killer combo it must be fast, natural, precise & perfectly timed. The body mist act correctly without conscious throught. The motion has been "internalized" so the reaction is done without hesitation.

So yes #3 is something to aspire to. Don't call it internal if that does not sit well but it's still something to aim for.

Btw - to emphasise i think that list is wonderful. It's for another post but the question is - how many have made their style their own vs. following what they were told?
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:07 pm

dspyrido wrote:The motion has been "internalized" so the reaction is done without hesitation.

The key point to use this combo is:

When your opponent steps back, you step in. The way that you step in is like your body is going into a chicken cage with

- head down,
- body lean forward.
- hollow the chest.
- tight the belly.

When you move in this way, not only you will have momentum, it's also hard for your opponent to counter you. I'm not sure any IMA system's entering strategy can fit into this requirement.

Image

You the suddenly raise your head, straight your upper body, and change your push into pull. The pushing is like the compressing. The pulling is like the releasing.

Image

The interested part of this combo is, if you step in your left leg when you try to get your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you don't need to step in again and you can change your push to pull without extra footwork.

This is the principle of "hide your next move footwork in your previous move".

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby Overlord on Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:00 am



Impressed!
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby dspyrido on Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:47 pm

Not really on topic but an interesting post:

johnwang wrote:The key point to use this combo is:

When your opponent steps back, you step in. The way that you step in is like your body is going into a chicken cage with

- head down,
- body lean forward.
- hollow the chest.
- tight the belly.

When you move in this way, not only you will have momentum, it's also hard for your opponent to counter you. I'm not sure any IMA system's entering strategy can fit into this requirement.


I like the sequence of action reaction but would it work the same if striking was involved? The entry with the head down seems a target for upper cut, knee or sprawl on top.


johnwang wrote:The interested part of this combo is, if you step in your left leg when you try to get your opponent's leading leg, when he steps back, you don't need to step in again and you can change your push to pull without extra footwork.

This is the principle of "hide your next move footwork in your previous move".


I like. I am sure it can be adapted but wouldn't it be slippery without the jacket?
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Re: Make IMA great again (or other style if that helps)

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:47 pm

dspyrido wrote:would it work the same if striking was involved? The entry with the head down seems a target for upper cut, knee or sprawl on top.

If full speed, your opponent won't have chance to punch you.

Image

dspyrido wrote:wouldn't it be slippery without the jacket?

This combo doesn't work well without jacket. It's a good winter combat skill (because your jacket grip is good for both pushing and pulling). It's not a good summer combat skill.

Without the jacket, the knee seize, inner hook is a better combo. When your opponent steps back, you push on his neck and hook his other leg. This way, your shoulder pushing become neck pushing. You don't have to chance your pushing into pulling.
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