Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby johnwang on Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:24 pm

Wrong designed form, or wrong application? Your thought?

Form:

- Both arms are straight.
- Both palms are facing down.
- Tiger mouths are closed.

Image

Application:

- Both arms are bending.
- One palm is facing up, another palm is facing down.
- Tiger mouths are open.

Image

Tiger mouth:

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby Subitai on Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:36 pm

Isn't that Cheng man ching?

Oh oh... You're getting TOO REAL JOHN... Better watch it when you criticize the old Chinese masters....

The fantasy loving Tai Chi police may pop out and "Question>>>> your Questioning" of a goody but oldie!!!

================================================================================================
Also... before I would criticize another old master I will also say that I could look to my own ancestors (and in other peoples) and see similar faults "here and there". It makes me wonder if we should all adhere to the quote: "Do as I say (or teach) but not as I do" ?

= But I think your comments about the straight arms and tigers mouth are valid. I don't have a problem with his palms facing down...so long as they achieve covering his center as he rotates.

That move precedes Single Whip Correct?
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby Trick on Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:47 am

are there supposed to be anything wrong with ZMQ performance ? i dont practice that form anymore, but im "impessed" everytime i see a vid of ZMQ performing, especially his sword sparring stuff........ok, tiger mouth. in my tongbei practice we are supposed to keep thumbs folded in toward the palm of the hand, outstreched thumb might be in the way during exercices, and in fighting fingers can be quite vulnerable. yin BGZ also tuck the thumb in if i remember right....however i know the value of tiger mouth practice
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby Trick on Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:02 am

sinews/tendons from hand to shoulders/back are affected differently by which hand shape one holds, the thumb tucked in, hand and forearm/arm alligned makes for an more outstreched/long arm, suitable in for example tongbeiquan methods
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:43 am

The application you're showing looks more to me like it could be derived from roll back posture
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:02 pm

Subitai wrote:I don't have a problem with his palms facing down...so long as they achieve covering his center as he rotates.

What do you think the application should be?

You can't control your opponent's arm by using

- double Yin palms, or
- double Yang palms.

Image

You can only control your opponent's arm with 1 Yin palm and 1 Yang palm. Unless this move has no arm control intention to start with. In that case, what application should it be?

Image
Image
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:32 pm

All respect to Mr Chen Man Ching, but I can't see a realisitic application to that move as presented.

Our style does it like this:

Image

Was this the original version? Who knows. I'd look at Chen style. Probably more likely that my version got changed to be more practical by somebody in my lineage from whatever they were given (might have looked more like Mr Chen ManChing). Who knows what the original ORIGINAL version was.. It probably had something to do with a spear or a religious ritual of some kind.

I think it's just more important these days, that you do something that has some 'meaning' to you as an application, and is not just waving hands in the air.

Our version is a wrist and elbow control (keeping one hand close to the body for leverage as you rotate), moving the opponent sideways by locking their arm straight and applying pressure to the elbow, then whip them back and strike to the head with the palm. The second part of the movemement is a separate application - deflect and strike with finger tips to armpit, or push to chest.
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:42 pm

This is the way we do in Chang Taiji.

Image

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:20 pm

The move simply doesn't exist in Chen style;

Image
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby robert on Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:31 pm

In Chen style it's a small circle. This clip starts with Liu Feng Si Bi and Dan Bian starts at 0:27. The application is a lock - the fingers and thumb of the right hand on either side of the opponent's palm.

Last edited by robert on Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby Bao on Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:20 pm

Wrong designed form, or wrong application?


Depends on how rigid view you have on form and application. As I was taught, no standard form is exactly fixed, but more an example of how you can do things. Which means that you can, and that you are allowed to, change and make variations according to application.

But I have never considered any application of this movement with palms parallel and down an arm drag. There are many other moves where an arm drag comes more natural imo. The most obvious application here, when you turn to the right while keeping your arms this way parallel with the elbows this high, is to parry and roll over your right elbow over the opponent’s striking (his left) arm. If you do this, then it’s more logical to keep the other hand’s palm facing downward as it’s also on top of your opponent’s arm and presses it down. Now, the right hand (after the right elbow has rolled over the opponent’s arm and is on top of it) can either shape a back fist to strike the opponent’s face, or it can block another incoming punch from the opponent’s other (right) arm.
(With this method, you don’t need to wait for an actual strike, but depending on what guard he uses, you can go in, touch his arms with your hand and directly roll over your elbow over his guard.)

Don’t know if this description is clear enough, but for this application the appearance of the common Yang style movement is most logical. Maybe the variation of Chang style suits its focus on throwing better. Yang Style applications are traditionally a mix of all sorts of methods as grappling defensive, punches, takedowns, throws, qinna etc. It doesn’t have a focus on either this or that. And most postures can be interpreted in many different ways.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby Subitai on Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:33 pm

johnwang wrote:This is the way we do in Chang Taiji.

Image

Image


See...this is exactly why I JOKED about daring to "pick apart" or Critique other masters ::)


But since you put the GIFS up there. Just looking at the difference between how Chang Sifu has his weight primarily on his right leg at the start of getting ready for Single whip.

Now look at the students just below (presumably taught by you John correct?)

* Notice how they shift their weight IN CONCERT WITH THE LATERAL MOVEMENT OF THEIR ARMS back and forth.

== > Only one generation and it's different? Or is it a mess up? Or is it just "FOLLY" to think that we should even analyze such things. Mabe Chang Sifu was just in Demo mode? Because it is well known that he could kick ass.

=========================================================================================================

This is why I personally think...true fighters are able to apply regardless of form. (Ok within certain levels ;D )

OK, to counter what I just said....I do believe that Certain basics and fundamentals are required yes. But in general...if you're a fighter, you make things work for you.

===========================================================================================

To answer your question John...what do I think it is?

I like how GrahamB put up a Gif of "Yang Jun?" Next to one of the Chen "Diamonds" ...what's his name? I forgot.

See how Yang Jun does it? In our version of Yang Style (Gu Ru Zhang variant) ... This is close to how we do ours. Our palms are more facing out...neither up or down actually.

Doing it this way...you can grab, you still can stick, redirect and also cover your center before you finish with single whip. Of course, different applications are possible.

1st way I learned
https://youtu.be/5fTAA-M4GkY?t=46

that's only one way above...Now I actually do 2 other versions of Single Whip in my own personal practice.
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby johnwang on Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:29 am

Subitai wrote:Chang Sifu has his weight primarily on his right leg at the start of getting ready for Single whip.

You are right. When you pull your opponent's arm, if you want to borrow his force, you should have weight on your leading leg. There is a big difference when you train Taiji form with application in mind, or without it.
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby Taste of Death on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:01 pm

johnwang wrote:This is the way we do in Chang Taiji.
Image


She has the perfect form.
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Re: Wrong designed form, or wrong application?

Postby johnwang on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:41 pm

When you pull your opponent's arm, if your weight is on your

- back leg, you are using your body weight to pull him. Your mind is to pull your opponent toward you.
- front leg, you are ready to borrow your opponent's counter force to move in. Your mind is to pull yourself into your opponent.

IMO, both are correct.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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