Borrow Force

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Borrow Force

Postby johnwang on Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:08 pm

To make your technique to work on a strong opponent, you will need to borrow his force.

When you try to arm bar your opponent (straight his arm), when he resists (he tries to bend his arm), his resistance can help you to bend his arm with little effort.

How important is "borrow force" in your training?

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Re: Borrow Force

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:57 am

Very important
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Re: Borrow Force

Postby GrahamB on Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:23 am

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Re: Borrow Force

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:43 am

There’s various degrees. If the angle you’re using is very slight and he doesn’t notice immediately then it’s a ‘hua’ (transform). If the change moves 180 degrees then that’s a Chayi (like turning a light switch on or off). In Baguazhang the dragon is basically a martial art built from the Baoding Kuai Jiao (a Chinese city’s style of fast wrestling) and it emphasizes the Chayi changing.

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Re: Borrow Force

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:27 pm

In order to borrow force, you have to give force. If you want to borrow the west direction force, you have to give the east direction force first. This may violate the Taiji principle, if you don't move, I won't move.

Your thought?
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Re: Borrow Force

Postby Bao on Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:46 pm

when he resists (he tries to bend his arm), his resistance can help you to bend his arm with little effort


Don’t know if I would call that borrowing, at least not from my own perspective. Or rather, you don’t need to borrow force with that method. First force him in one direction, then switch direction as he won’t be strong there. Forcing one direction and then the other. That’s not borrowing IMO. Borrowing is to add movement or momentum in the direction the opponent already moves. You won’t need no effort at all, it should be like cutting lukewarm butter.

johnwang wrote:In order to borrow force, you have to give force. If you want to borrow the west direction force, you have to give the east direction force first. This may violate the Taiji principle, if you don't move, I won't move.

Your thought?


There’s nothing wrong to force, faint or fool someone to move. “If my opponent move slightly, I move [in] first”. This is also a Tai Chi principle.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Borrow Force

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:02 pm

Bao wrote:Borrowing is to add movement or momentum in the direction the opponent already moves.

Your method have to depend on your opponent. If your opponent moves to the east, you can only borrow his east force.

I don't like to depend on my opponent's intention (control by my opponent). I prefer to use my own intention (control by me).

Here is another example.

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Re: Borrow Force

Postby windwalker on Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:49 pm

johnwang wrote:In order to borrow force, you have to give force. If you want to borrow the west direction force, you have to give the east direction force first. This may violate the Taiji principle, if you don't move, I won't move.

Your thought?


I look at it,
as leading the others force.

Image

When solid objects deform they typically try to restore themselves and "spring back" to their natural shape. The heavier the weight, the greater the deformation, the greater the restoring force trying to bring the surface back to its natural shape.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/phy ... rmal-force

The problem is understanding the "right" amount

To much the other will know and understand what to do / countering it
To little the other will not respond to it / expecting a reaction that didn't happen could leave one in a bad position

The right amount say 4oz, enough to cause a reaction that most will not understand why or what
they're reacting to.....
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Borrow Force

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:45 am

johnwang wrote:I don't like to depend on my opponent's intention (control by my opponent). I prefer to use my own intention (control by me).


I don’t disagree. The passive mindset is a mistake imo. If you have a passive approach you’ll get run down. I prefer a very much pro-active approach, to go in and make contact right from the start. Relying on tingjin is faster than trusting your eyes. And it shouldn’t really be a question of borrowing or not, but any way you can find his balance or weakness is fine with me.

Here is another example.

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/GpXRFnDh/borrow-force.gif ]


From my own ignorant view this looks better. :)
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Re: Borrow Force

Postby Subitai on Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:05 am

It depends... if you wanna just strike, stick and move or bash him from longer striking range...then no, I don't need to borrow much force.

Example,

-A Guy throws a jabb...I dodge it. ( I watch his timing, I see his footwork )
-Again he throws a jab & cross...I stick (intercept) to his jabb and duck the cross. Bam, I attack with my own combo.


=========================================================================================

ANYTIME he grabs me or I clinch with him...then yes, I will highly consider borrowing force if that's the right method.

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Re: Borrow Force

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:40 pm

Subitai wrote:It depends... if you wanna just strike, stick and move or bash him from longer striking range...then no, I don't need to borrow much force.

Even in striking art, you can still borrow force.

- Your opponent punches you.
- you block it and pull his punching arm (This will pull your body toward your opponent).
- You then use switching hand and punch him.

The entire preying mantis system is built on this Gou Lou Cai Shou (hook, pull, switch, punch). This is a good strategy to achieve "head on collusion" (your opponent moves toward you, your fist move toward him). IMO, 1 head on collusion punch can be better than 10 rear end collusion punches.

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Re: Borrow Force

Postby Subitai on Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:03 pm

johnwang wrote:
Subitai wrote:It depends... if you wanna just strike, stick and move or bash him from longer striking range...then no, I don't need to borrow much force.

Even in striking art, you can still borrow force.

- Your opponent punches you.
- you block it and pull his punching arm (This will pull your body toward your opponent).
- You then use switching hand and punch him.

The entire preying mantis system is built on this Gou Lou Cai Shou (hook, pull, switch, punch). This is a good strategy to achieve "head on collusion" (your opponent moves toward you, your fist move toward him). IMO, 1 head on collusion punch can be better than 10 rear end collusion punches.

Image


Yes there are options...but do you really need to?

In the example you just gave, "you block it and pull his punching arm" Basically = ( you bridge and the hand doesn't return empty )
* this is a mantra at my school

Even I...who loves this method will concede that simple often works best. In this case, borrowing is more complicated than just attacking a persons attack.

I hope you're not suggesting that everyone should try to borrow force all the time?

Of course not...do what is easiest at the time ;D

====================================================================

Now I have a question for you John...

Assuming your opponent KNOWS that you will try to borrow his force, which of these 2 will realistically be easier for you to pull off borrowing?

1) he's keeping his distance, striking and moving perhaps with good footwork.

or

2) He's willing to get close and grab or clinch with you.

I dare you to say # 1... and if you do...i'm lost :o
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Re: Borrow Force

Postby johnwang on Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:27 pm

Subitai wrote: do you really need to?
...
1) he's keeping his distance, striking and moving perhaps with good footwork.
or
2) He's willing to get close and grab or clinch with you.

If you want to knock your opponent down by just 1 punch, that "head on collusion" set up can be helpful.

If my opponent uses strategy 1, there is nothing that I can do to him. One of my teacher's students used strategy 1 on my teacher, even my teacher could not do anything on his student.

David C. K. Lin once told me that if he uses strategy 1 on me, I won't be able to apply any head lock on him. His comment bothered me for many years. I then understood that kick, punch, throw is only good in theory. It's not good enough. I need kick, punch, clinch, throw.

We can fight in such a way that you throw 100 punches and I also throw 100 punches. You make land 60 punches on me, and I can only land 40 punches on you. At the end, you knock me down and win the fight. I don't like that kind of fight. I like to establish a

- clinch, and switch a fist fight into a wrestling game, or
- head on collusion, and knock down my opponent ASAP.
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Re: Borrow Force

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:03 pm

johnwang wrote:
Subitai wrote: do you really need to?
...
1) he's keeping his distance, striking and moving perhaps with good footwork.
or
2) He's willing to get close and grab or clinch with you.


If you use strategy 1, there is nothing that I can do to you. One of my teacher's students used strategy 1 on my teacher, even my teacher could not do anything on his student.

David C. K. Lin once told me that if he uses strategy 1 on me, I won't be able to apply any head lock on him. His comment bothered me for many years. I then understood that kick, punch, throw is only good in theory. It's not good enough. I need kick, punch, clinch, throw.


Your anecdotes point out what I consider to be a major weakness in conventional TCMA training.

TCMA training tends to focus exclusively on how to control and fight an opponent AFTER arm/hand contact is made (i.e., 接手 jieshou), but very little on how to do so BEFORE making contact by using skills such as timing, feinting, distancing, and footwork.

IMO, those are actually the kind of skills that non-Chinese arts -- such as boxing and even Kendo -- excel in, and ones that TCMAists should also have if the goal is to become a proficient fighter.
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Re: Borrow Force

Postby Subitai on Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:33 pm

Johnwang, I agree with you about clinch. I've always preferred to be up close Grabbing and clinching.... as opposed to VS a guy who knows how to "Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee" :)

But...if i'm able to take the most simple road, i'll do that 1st. Older I get, the more simple I become.

====================================================================================
C.J.W. wrote:
Your anecdotes point out what I consider to be a major weakness in conventional TCMA training.

TCMA training tends to focus exclusively on how to control and fight an opponent AFTER arm/hand contact is made (i.e., 接手 jieshou), but very little on how to do so BEFORE making contact by using skills such as timing, feinting, distancing, and footwork.

IMO, those are actually the kind of skills that non-Chinese arts -- such as boxing and even Kendo -- excel in, and ones that TCMAists should also have if the goal is to become a proficient fighter.


That is exactly why i pointed those out...My experience taught me to change how I looked at and I used my TCMA. Almost all my posts and YT videos are about how you set people up. I'm constantly saying it and also, that when people show a method...they should also show how to counter it.

Example...a general fighter (or lets say MMA guy) knows he's facing a kung fu guy that wants to bridge and stick and use his kung fu.
* Aside from the obvious which is: "He could have zero respect for the KF guy and just blast right through him" = because he knows he hasn't been pressure tested enough

He could use strategy #1 (as JohnWang referred) to make the KF guy look incompetent.
or
He could close the gap rapidly (#2) by shooting in or ducking under ect ect / Grabbing and clinching just to annoy the KF guy.

- actually this plays into another Weakness as you put it. Respect! and One Shot Kill fantasy!


============================================================================================
About respect ,
I want to point out at least ONE OTHER WEAKNESS by most TCMA trained people.

That is the ability to deal out massive violence from the very start of a fight...if for no other reason than to earn respect.

Example, Again we have a MMA guy facing the typical KF guy.

- The MMA guy has ZERO RESPECT for the ability of the average KF guy to hurt him...he's able to move in freely and have a field day on the KF guy. So yeah, the end result is, KF suxks. ::)

- If however the KF guy has any fight experience worth a dang and can Truly bang out some punishment from the very start of a fight / match (also minding his breath control and not gassing out)... He can make the MMA feel as if: "Holy sh!T, this KF guy could actually hurt me!"

- It changes the dynamic altogether.
==============================================
About the One Shot kill fantasy..

How many people do you see out there get lucky and land a shot and realize:

1) they didn't hurt their opponent (as much as they theorized they would or not at all)

2) Their technique isn't working...NOW what the F>>> do I do?

3) They don't understand, how to finish another human being who is actually fighting back. Never to rely or believe that just one shot can do it.

- Can it happen yes... but less than desired and usually they need to learn to attack in combinations.

Strike, with locks and sweeps or throws all put together. IE..massive violence that earns their respect.
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