Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:28 pm

If your goal is "combat", there are many paths that can reach it.

If your

- waist/hip/Dantian rotation work in combat, do you care whether you are using waist, hip, or Dantian?
- punch can knock your opponent down, do you care whether you are using "internal" punch, or external punch?

In the following clip, whether he rotates his Dantian or not, the outcome will be the same as long as his:

- right foot bites behind his opponent's back foot ankle.
- waist rotates to his right.
- right arm pushes on his opponent's chest.
- left leg borrows the counter force from the ground and steps forward.

In other words, if you are doing the right thing, whether you rotate your waist, hip, or Dantain, it won't make any difference.

Image
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby everything on Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:22 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
everything wrote:whatever this is, it doesn't seem to be the same "dantian" that neidan talks about. or maybe it's some combination of neidan and mechanics (which I would love to be the conclusion / what you guys are saying).

The elasticity and health of the flesh and muscles of the abdomen and extremities requires Neidan. So the physical training of Dantian rotation is intertwined with Neidan work. In Baguazhang, if you want to develop a Dantian, then you have to do a lot of circle walking. Xingyiquan has their own requirements.
.


now that's getting to something that sounds interesting.
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby Formosa Neijia on Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:14 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:Image
In that gif, is that dantian rotation?

Here is my concern. I can prove with video that waist rotation is useful in combat. Can anybody be able to prove that Dantian rotation can be used in combat?

If you don't even use the waist rotation, why do you even bother to use the Dantian rotation? Use Dantian rotation for what purpose?


The use of this in combat is simple:
1. having a jello core prevents power transfer to hands. Having a solid dantian at the moment of impact facilitates force transfer. People who emphasize "whole body power," etc. who don't train the core will miss this because any somatic chain is only as strong as the weakest link.
2. combining breath with the technique is obviously useful but how to improve on it is rarely taught. This stuff gives you a way to do that and makes you hit harder.
3. To directly answer your question about hips, taking HIPS OUT OF THE EQUATION is what it's all about. Why would you want to do that?

We've all seen this clip:


So the question is this: how do you achieve knockout power in a punch WITHOUT moving your hips?


The answer is in that clip above starting at :55. Generating large amounts of force without a visible windup just might be useful for a few applications.

As to HOW to do that, I have provided many, many actual clips of people showing how to do it. Go look at those.

Now if your style doesn't use this then you aren't likely to find it useful. I won't try to convince you to do it. Why would I? But for people whose method might depend on it but they simply were never taught it, then that's another story. Smart people can look at the videos,compare it to what they know, and add what they feel is useful.
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby Trick on Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:02 pm

jaime_g wrote:
One poster concluded that golfers don’t use it so most probably base ballers neither, hockey players ? Boxers ? Gymnasts ? Weigh/power lifters? Ballet dancers ?.....Does it get you spiritually heightened? Greater health?


Why should they use it? You dont use something that you dont train.

Does a boxer train grand pliés? Does a gymnast train heavy bag striking? Does a powerlifter train splits? Does a ballet dance train clean and jerks?

Maybe some do these weird (for them) things...but I think no one focuses on them.

Dantian rotation can be useful for striking, throwing, ground fighting...but someone must teach it to you. Yoy arent going to develop a dantian if you dont train in a certain way

yes why dont they use it? its talked about all the time on here a ma forum, i get the impression it a very big thing in many martial arts communities, it out in the open how great a thing the dantian spin is, so why dont they pick it up.....you guys that promote its greatness for martial purpose, could andvertise it in the Ring and similar ?
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:51 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:This stuff gives you a way to do that and makes you hit harder.

Are you saying that Dantian rotation is only useful for the striking art, and not for the throwing art?

In another thread "Is 'internal' real that important?", I agree that "internal" is good for the striking art. My question in that thread is "Do I need internal for the throwing art (such as foot sweep)?"

In this thread, my question is the same. If you can use waist/hip rotation to throw your opponent, Do you still need Dantian rotation? What extra advantage will you add in?

Will Dantian rotation be able to help your foot sweep, or hip throw to have better result?
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:58 pm

May be when you guys talk about Dantian rotation, you are thinking about striking art only. When I question the usage of Dantian rotation, I only think about throwing art only (such as foot sweep, single leg, hip throw, ...).

Is that like a chicken tries to talk to a duck? :)
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby jaime_g on Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:18 am

yes why dont they use it? its talked about all the time on here a ma forum, i get the impression it a very big thing in many martial arts communities, it out in the open how great a thing the dantian spin is, so why dont they pick it up.....you guys that promote its greatness for martial purpose, could andvertise it in the Ring and similar ?


You cant use something you never learned. I agree that it's talked here a lot, but I think that is actually a dying skill that very few groups keep training.

Are you saying that Dantian rotation is only useful for the striking art, and not for the throwing art?

In another thread "Is 'internal' real that important?", I agree that "internal" is good for the striking art. My question in that thread is "Do I need internal for the throwing art (such as foot sweep)?"

In this thread, my question is the same. If you can use waist/hip rotation to throw your opponent, Do you still need Dantian rotation? What extra advantage will you add in?

Will Dantian rotation be able to help your foot sweep, or hip throw to have better result?


I think that the best answer to that can be found in your own posts.

When my grip strenght wasn't developed yet, I had to depend on the shoulder pulling for my sweep. After I had my grip strength developed, I could just pull my opponent's elbow with only one hand when I sweep. It reduces my sweep from 2 steps into just 1 step, and my successful rate was much higher.

The most difficult part of moving from jacket throw to no jacket throw is it's much more difficult to grab on your opponent's skin than his jacket. In no-gi environment, a pair of strong grip hands is a must.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:22 pm,



Think on it as another improvement of the successful rate.
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby GrahamB on Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:51 am

I think John is right - a lot of this is the difference between throwing art and striking art. Not using parts of your body (like the hips, for example) is a disadvantage in grappling. I'm pretty sure that to do a lot of really nice judo throws, for example, you put various parts of your body out of alignment all the time. You lean, you bend, you break all the 'rules' of 'internal'. I think you could look at "whole body" as being a misnomer in that respect. "Internal" seems to be about using parts of the body so minimally they almost disapear.
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby everything on Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:47 am

Trick wrote:
jaime_g wrote:
One poster concluded that golfers don’t use it so most probably base ballers neither, hockey players ? Boxers ? Gymnasts ? Weigh/power lifters? Ballet dancers ?.....Does it get you spiritually heightened? Greater health?


Why should they use it? You dont use something that you dont train.

Does a boxer train grand pliés? Does a gymnast train heavy bag striking? Does a powerlifter train splits? Does a ballet dance train clean and jerks?

Maybe some do these weird (for them) things...but I think no one focuses on them.

Dantian rotation can be useful for striking, throwing, ground fighting...but someone must teach it to you. Yoy arent going to develop a dantian if you dont train in a certain way

yes why dont they use it? its talked about all the time on here a ma forum, i get the impression it a very big thing in many martial arts communities, it out in the open how great a thing the dantian spin is, so why dont they pick it up.....you guys that promote its greatness for martial purpose, could andvertise it in the Ring and similar ?


more power, smaller windup/movement --- seems useful in many contexts. for example I could use it in soccer (football for non-usa). I agree with Bhassler's further breakdown of the sports examples not being the same when you dig deeper. but this should still help. if it's something that's dying out and requires special training, then it's becoming extinct as it becomes harder to find the right teacher. if it's "smart people can figure it out", then it's not really in danger of going away.
Last edited by everything on Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:04 am

I would say it’s more used in throwing then in striking. It comes more into play after contact is made. It’s required in order to adapt or where one is changing angles and to not have any break in the power. There’s a method in Bagua called ‘Dai’ (carrying), where both hands are grabbing onto the opponent, and it’s the method where connecting your arms to the Dantian really makes it effective.

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Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby D_Glenn on Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:53 am

everything wrote:
D_Glenn wrote:
everything wrote:whatever this is, it doesn't seem to be the same "dantian" that neidan talks about. or maybe it's some combination of neidan and mechanics (which I would love to be the conclusion / what you guys are saying).

The elasticity and health of the flesh and muscles of the abdomen and extremities requires Neidan. So the physical training of Dantian rotation is intertwined with Neidan work. In Baguazhang, if you want to develop a Dantian, then you have to do a lot of circle walking. Xingyiquan has their own requirements.
.


now that's getting to something that sounds interesting.

Basically it’s following the standard requirements that come with all qigong, touching tongue to soft palate, lifting up the pelvic basin, hollowing the chest, rounding the lumbar tucking tailbone to have the spine in a turtle back shape, relax shoulder blades. Then this posture and the requirements are held the whole time you’re circle walking. 40 minutes minimum a day, but longer is better in the beginning. The Dantian in Bagua is a little different from other styles because you’re trying to twist and continually hold your Transverse Abdominal muscles contracting towards the center of the circle, all the while your hips are moving back and forth that causes a wringing and stretching action on all the fascia, muscles and tissues that form your exterior Dantian. Always expanding the abdomen while wrapping it back in eventually creates more space for abdominal aorta and inferior vena cava to not have pressing tension around them and the amount of exertion you can put into your circle walking can be ever increasing. Eventually, without any thought given to it, your body might start naturally doing a ‘contrary breathing’ (ni huxi), where the abdomen contracts slightly on inhale and expands slightly on exhale. That’s where more of the internal conditioning starts happening. But again you don’t have to think about it. Circle walking is designed so that even the stupidest person can get internal cultivation benefits and physical strengthening at the same time. It’s why the Song style of Xingyiquan incorporated it, but modified it where they still do their normal Dantian self massage while they’re walking around in a circle.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

Postby everything on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:36 pm

D_Glenn wrote: Circle walking is designed so that even the stupidest person can get internal cultivation benefits and physical strengthening at the same time.
.


Thanks for the long description. This kind of idiot proofing is probably an under appreciated aspect of various exercises. Personally, I work on qigong (seated or lying) separately, non-martially, but for the "engine" and energy center. I happen to circle walk some but while kicking a ball. It can't meet all the bagua requirements, but it likely meets some of them in my "application" (including spinning moves that "throw" people off in sports) without my knowingly working on the correct muscles. My feet, legs, abs, etc. have to do these things while sometimes absorbing light, incidental contact "forces" from other people while doing very intricate footwork (no doubt more intricate than most IMA stepping, I'd say). It's a little like "incidental baguazhang" skill in a non-martial game. I'm not really willing to work specifically on the "general IMA" due to my specific application requirements taking priority at the moment... filing your post away for now. One of my goals would be to merge the non-martial qigong with the "incidental baguazhang" skills. Maybe I'll get interested in "IMA" again later.
Last edited by everything on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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