Dantian -- north vs. south, hard vs soft

[jaime_g]

Two of my older cousins won many golf championships during his youth. They still have amazing hip swings. They have zero dantian rotation.

I gave an exercise before as an example of dantian rotation training. I tested my cousins at it. The both left the wall by moving the hips and shoulders, they couldnt isolate dantian area muscle movement.

It requires focused training, you cant use something you havent trained.

[Trick]

Making a circular rotation vertically or horizontally is too slow for many combat applications.

i also think using the word rotation causes confusion.

The horizontally rotation makes perfect sense when you apply the "切 (Qie) - front cut".

In that gif, is that dantian rotation? I’m askin because I actually don’t know how deliberate dantian rotations look. Does wrestling arts have specific dantian exercises - Greco/Roman, Judo, GJJ/BJJ, ShuaiJiao?

Maybe drifting a little from dantian , but keeping with the north vs south. Are there any southern wrestling traditions in China ? Or is ShuaiJiao strictly an northern thing?

In Okinawa there used to be an local Sumo wrestling tradition called Tegumi, it was an supposedly popular activity for boys and young men to participate in, Gichin Funakoshi in one of his books writes about this.
This seem to have been a thing before the time of Goju-ryu and similar styles had been established on the island.
Finakoshi’s karate belong to the Shorin-ryu(Shaolin(maybe suggesting an north
Chinese link?) )
While goju-ryu and Uech-ryu is directly linked to Fujian Province.

[Trick]

In that gif, is that dantian rotation?

Here is my concern. I can prove with video that waist rotation is useful in combat. Can anybody be able to prove that Dantian rotation can be used in combat?

If you don't even use the waist rotation, why do you even bother to use the Dantian rotation? Use Dantian rotation for what purpose?

Yes, i wonder that to, dantian rotation for what purpose? One poster concluded that golfers don’t use it so most probably base ballers neither, hockey players ? Boxers ? Gymnasts ? Weigh/power lifters? Ballet dancers ?.....Does it get you spiritually heightened? Greater health?

[D_Glenn]

Two of my older cousins won many golf championships during his youth. They still have amazing hip swings. They have zero dantian rotation.

I gave an exercise before as an example of dantian rotation training. I tested my cousins at it. The both left the wall by moving the hips and shoulders, they couldnt isolate dantian area muscle movement.

It requires focused training, you cant use something you havent trained.

Exactly.

And I’m pretty sure you and I are talking about the same thing. And if I read back through this thread I could find more people.

.

[everything]

Two of my older cousins won many golf championships during his youth. They still have amazing hip swings. They have zero dantian rotation.

I gave an exercise before as an example of dantian rotation training. I tested my cousins at it. The both left the wall by moving the hips and shoulders, they couldnt isolate dantian area muscle movement.

It requires focused training, you cant use something you havent trained.

this is great. so you'd say golf doesn't use it. maybe doesn't need it?

do you think it would help golf and other sports, or only certain MA things?

if it's useful for turning things like throws and strikes, it should be useful in sports. that doesn't mean golfers can do it, but you guys who say you do this should be able to apply it. that also doesn't mean you could beat your cousins at golf. but theoretically, if it's good for MA moves it should be useful for other things.

[jaime_g]

One poster concluded that golfers don’t use it so most probably base ballers neither, hockey players ? Boxers ? Gymnasts ? Weigh/power lifters? Ballet dancers ?.....Does it get you spiritually heightened? Greater health?

Why should they use it? You dont use something that you dont train.

Does a boxer train grand pliés? Does a gymnast train heavy bag striking? Does a powerlifter train splits? Does a ballet dance train clean and jerks?

Maybe some do these weird (for them) things...but I think no one focuses on them.

Dantian rotation can be useful for striking, throwing, ground fighting...but someone must teach it to you. Yoy arent going to develop a dantian if you dont train in a certain way

[everything]

cross posted.

if it's useful for rotational moves it should be useful for almost all sports. maybe they don't do it ,but if they train it, theoretically it should help them. that doesn't mean if you can do it, you can beat your cousins at golf, but it should make all athletes better at certain moves if they could learn it.

[D_Glenn]

Fwiw it’s worth. I have done Shuai Jiao with John Wang and got to feel how his body works while doing basic Shuai Jiao throws.

And I have also done basic Shuai Jiao with Luo Dexiu Gao style bagua, and practiced and felt basic Shuai Jiao with my teacher He Jinbao Yin Style Bagua.

John’s usage of strength is completely different than the Baguazhang. It’s hard to explain. I don’t know if I could easily do it. I will try to think of a way to describe the difference. Of course the best way to know is to feel the difference for yourself. But I don’t know how feasible that is. The Baguazhang guys do seminars, I don’t know about John. And I don’t know that any other Judo or Shuai Jiao guys will have the same extremely high level of skill as John. I am comparing elite level martial artist to elite level artists of a different movement paradigm. Not amateur to elite.

But, from this thread, and others on RSF, I now know that the biggest reason for this difference is that John is not using Dantian Zhuan (turning/ rotation), while the Baguazhang guys are.


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[everything]

Why should they use it? You dont use something that you dont train.

it doesn't make sense that something that can help rotational circular power should not be trained. e.g., American football could surely use something that is good for sumo, wrestling, etc. if it's special only for isolated MA cases, it doesn't make logical sense if we say it helps with these kinds of power applications.

if it's purely muscular (I don't think that should be called "dantian") then it should help in so many other "applications".

[jaime_g]

I think that many sports would benefit from dantian training.

Problem is it takes time (not a lot, but it's not something you can just learn today and use tomorrow) and it needs a rewire of the body to move in a certain way. For most athletes that would mean to lose their prime years rebuilding everything he learnt before. For most it would be asking too much. Most people get access to dantian training in their 30's or 40's, that's a problem too. You would need teenagers willing to train and learn.

[everything]

Fwiw it’s worth. I have done Shuai Jiao with John Wang and got to feel how his body works while doing basic Shuai Jiao throws.

And I have also done basic Shuai Jiao with Luo Dexiu Gao style bagua, and practiced and felt basic Shuai Jiao with my teacher He Jinbao Yin Style Bagua.

John’s usage of strength is completely different than the Baguazhang. It’s hard to explain. I don’t know if I could easily do it. I will try to think of a way to describe the difference. Of course the best way to know is to feel the difference for yourself. But I don’t know how feasible that is. The Baguazhang guys do seminars, I don’t know about John. And I don’t know that any other Judo or Shuai Jiao guys will have the same extremely high level of skill as John. I am comparing elite level martial artist to elite level artists of a different movement paradigm. Not amateur to elite.

But, from this thread, and others on RSF, I now know that the biggest reason for this difference is that John is not using Dantian Zhuan (turning/ rotation), while the Baguazhang guys are.


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I think that's really helpful.

my personal conclusions right now are still:
1. there is some different muscular based power generation.
2. if it helps, then theoretically it should help a young athlete become a better shuai jiao player. same with many sports.
3. if those BGZ [insert various sports] players cannot beat "conventionally" trained SJ champs, maybe it's not really as helpful as we say.
4. whatever this is, it doesn't seem to be the same "dantian" that neidan talks about. or maybe it's some combination of neidan and mechanics (which I would love to be the conclusion / what you guys are saying).

[jaime_g]

Two of my older cousins won many golf championships during his youth. They still have amazing hip swings. They have zero dantian rotation.

I gave an exercise before as an example of dantian rotation training. I tested my cousins at it. The both left the wall by moving the hips and shoulders, they couldnt isolate dantian area muscle movement.

It requires focused training, you cant use something you havent trained.

Exactly.

And I’m pretty sure you and I are talking about the same thing. And if I read back through this thread I could find more people.

.

I'm pretty sure too.

And I'm also sure that you would agreed that even between baguazhang guys is not common to find great dantian developement.

[jaime_g]

This is one of my favourite quotes from this forum:

New postby johnwang on Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:51 pm

One of my SC brothers had a comment in front of my teacher and made my teacher very mad. The comment was,

"Nobody in the modern time has the luxury to train Gong. It's totally old fashion and out of date."

Looking down at traditional skills that need time to develop has always been a tradition itself

[D_Glenn]

whatever this is, it doesn't seem to be the same "dantian" that neidan talks about. or maybe it's some combination of neidan and mechanics (which I would love to be the conclusion / what you guys are saying).

The elasticity and health of the flesh and muscles of the abdomen and extremities requires Neidan. So the physical training of Dantian rotation is intertwined with Neidan work. In Baguazhang, if you want to develop a Dantian, then you have to do a lot of circle walking. Xingyiquan has their own requirements.

One could make the argument that it’s not needed, but it would be difficult to find a teacher, or teaching method that separated the two. It is really rare, (as Jaime said, and I agree), to even find people who know how to do this, and trained it to a level where it makes a difference. So if you find someone who can teach you, then you likely will have to train the same way as they did.

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[Bhassler]

Why should they use it? You dont use something that you dont train.

it doesn't make sense that something that can help rotational circular power should not be trained. e.g., American football could surely use something that is good for sumo, wrestling, etc. if it's special only for isolated MA cases, it doesn't make logical sense if we say it helps with these kinds of power applications.

if it's purely muscular (I don't think that should be called "dantian") then it should help in so many other "applications".

It makes a lot of sense if you look at the actual requirements for what you're trying to accomplish. Fighting requires adaptability, mobility, not overextending, moving targets, etc. Golf requires an extreme level of consistency hitting a stationary target that is always in the same position (or a few slight variations) relative to the golfer. Golfers use the momentum of a weight shift in a very large movement with lots of windup and a slow follow through, which are things that get you clobbered in a fight.

Similarly, sumo guys are geared towards a few seconds of all out exertion, and then they're done. Football players have totally different conditioning needs and are tasked with a wider variety of things they need to do (i.e offensive linement need to deal with pass vs. run, pulling, cutting, getting to the second level, etc.).

There are a few superficial similarities, in the sense that there are similarities between a race car and a dump truck, but it won't work well to use one for the other's job.

The same could be said for IMA, by the way. For example, taiji is much more similar to white crane in a lot of ways than it is to bagua, which is some respects is more similar to mantis than it is to even it's sister art of hsing yi. It depends on what taxonomy you're using to quantify them. IMA are lumped together in part because they are traditionally tied to Daoist philosophy, but likely more because Sun Lu Tang wrote a book when not many people were doing it, so his more or less arbitrary grouping of those things based on his own particular practice stuck and became a trope.