Punching/blocking drill

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:26 pm

Bao wrote: I am not sure if walking backwards as here is the best way to practice though.

I prefer to move in circle toward my opponent's blind side and away from his back hand.

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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Formosa Neijia on Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:49 pm

johnwang wrote:One thing that I regret very much is the long fist system doesn't have this kind of partner training. The long fist system only have 2 men form which is different than partner drill. If I can ever relive my life again, I will spend most of my training time in this kind of partner drill instead of the solo form training.

Here is another partner drill that I like.



I have been stunned at the lack of hand drills taught in many places. It's a lost art but the Cantonese styles have preserved it better. Choy li fut has tons of them. in fact, every CMA can be taught as nothing but a series of drills. It makes a much better class than doing endless forms.

C.J.W. wrote:One of my teachers used to advise against overdoing this type of choreographed drills. He believes that they build bad habits for fighting by "making your heart and hands too soft."

The reasoning behind it is that those drills are basically a series of sloppily executed techniques. Ideally, you want to be able to knock down the opponent with just one move -- as opposed to purposely holding back so that your partner can have the chance to counter and continue the drill.


With respect, my experience was the exact opposite. These drills should never be done sloppily. They should be practiced as solo forms when you're alone and then done paired in class. Performance should be very crisp because you are aiming at precise anatomic targets. As the student progresses, the amount of power is ramped up until they are done full-contact. It trains iron body, iron arm (tiebigong), etc. When footwork is added, you have pre-arranged sparring. When enough drills have been trained, then you can go semi-free sparring to then free sparring.

Most teachers lack this progression into sparring because they don't have the drills. Back in the old days, a teacher had the kungfu in his hands and could pass that on to you by doing it WITH you. These days, that gone and has been replaced by forms. The arts are the lesser for it.
Check out my school/gym: http://formosafitness.pixnet.net/blog
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Overlord on Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:06 pm

johnwang wrote:
Subitai wrote:= Then always come back to the mother and start again.

Agree! The punch/block drill is only the staring point. It can move into more complicate partner training.

This is the famous Baji "tiger climb mountain 猛虎硬爬山".

- Downward parry, palm strike (same as XingYi Pi Quan)
- chest punch (same as XingYi Beng Quan),
- elbow strike (Baji elbow).
- palm strike.

One can see that Baji and XingYi have a lot of similarity,

Image


The clip is demonstrated by an author of CMA books (夢入神機). His demo is horrible.
He probably has good teachers taught him well, but he demonstrated poorly.
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Overlord on Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:08 pm

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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Bob on Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:49 am

That's the trouble with seeing one clip without seeing the rest of the drills - it's easy to conclude that it's representative of the entire training system

There are probably at least 20 - 30 of similar praying mantis drills i learned over with a wide range of angles and movements employed.

The very first thing I was taught were 2 sets of 6 moving, punching,and kicking drills. No forms - then 7 hand and then 2 person application drill.

They range from in place to moving - one drill has two people sitting on the ground doing punch & block forcing you to learn how to use your waist - in the 8 step system there are drills that are similar to push hands - there is a drill where some one thrusts a staff at you and you learn to move off-line, block with the forearm and grasp with the mantis grab while continuously advancing.

The very first praying mantis drill I learnied was a 3 movement combo of kicking & striking the opponent's temple from a 45 degrees angle position

This has not even touched on the static & moving kicking drills & combination kicks, grabs strikes, chops

The praying mantis that the late Su Yu Zhang possessed was extensive, deep & wide ranging - it's hard to draw a sensible conclusion without seeing a more representative sample of the entire range of his material
Last edited by Bob on Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Overlord on Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:44 am

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Would be better if they were standing close enough to hit each other.

What do you think about this distance?

Image


https://open-9.blogspot.com/2012/02/blog-post_07.html?m=1

This site probably has got Xingyi five elements drill best explained,
There is mobile step 五行生剋
There is fixed steps 交山砲
交山砲 is rarely seen nowadays, aiming to feel the different force of five elements, probably one of the most important drill in Xingyi.
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Overlord on Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:03 am

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote: I am not sure if walking backwards as here is the best way to practice though.

I prefer to move in circle toward my opponent's blind side and away from his back hand.

Image


Hi John
I understand the drill may require training partner make it a little concession for the training go smoothly.
But realistically
1, The cross will aim behind you and punch will go thru you
2, The angle of cross will go straight or even more “out side” 包抄
3,Cross will be done with an extra step
Thus, bit of back motion or pendulum movements/side step is required.
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:47 am

Overlord wrote:

This really doesn't do it for me. Too complacent. Too long and complicated. Too unrealistic. No power.
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Overlord on Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:41 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
Overlord wrote:

This really doesn't do it for me. Too complacent. Too long and complicated. Too unrealistic. No power.


;D

Wow.....very powerful statement indeed. 8-)
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby johnwang on Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:52 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Too complacent. Too long and complicated. Too unrealistic. No power.

It's 2 men form and no longer partner drill. IMO, the partner drill should be no more than 3 moves.

What's the problem with 2 men form? In order to finish the whole form, you have to "intentionally" make your move to fail. The more that you have "learned how to fail", the less that you will accumulate the correct experience.

The 2 men form is the opposite of the "knock/take your opponent down ASAP".

In the following clip, if your leg

1. can control your opponent's back leg, when you push on his chest, he will be down.
2. can't control your opponent's back leg, he will escape, and the 2 men form will continue.

1 is the right way to train. 2 is not.

Image

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:49 pm

Overlord wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
Overlord wrote:

This really doesn't do it for me. Too complacent. Too long and complicated. Too unrealistic. No power.


;D

Wow.....very powerful statement indeed. 8-)

Well, sorry! :P
Too much of that bullshit floating around...
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:50 pm

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Too complacent. Too long and complicated. Too unrealistic. No power.

It's 2 men form and no longer partner drill. IMO, the partner drill should be no more than 3 moves.

What's the problem with 2 men form? In order to finish the whole form, you have to "intentionally" make your move to fail. The more that you have "learned how to fail", the less that you will accumulate the correct experience.

The 2 men form is the opposite of the "knock/take your opponent down ASAP".

In the following clip, if your leg

1. can control your opponent's back leg, when you push on his chest, he will be down.
2. can't control your opponent's back leg, he will escape, and the 2 men form will continue.

1 is the right way to train. 2 is not.

Image

Image

Yes, I agree. No more than three moves. They should also be performed with good power and intent.
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Overlord on Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:26 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
Overlord wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
Too much of that bullshit floating around...


No worries, everyone is entitled to their opinion. It’s pointless to discuss summer with Olaf.
Hong Yixiang was such a good CMAist, he was so good during his time BBC literally send a team to film his training and his daily life for months. I don’t know if any other CMAist has achieved his skills today that BBC today will send a team filming it for months.
Well I guess BBC people was probably just plan stupid, they love to waste money filming useless shit. :)
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:53 am

wasnt the BBC in east asia to shoot varous famous ma's masters, so they stayed several months in east asia ?
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Re: Punching/blocking drill

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:55 am

Trick wrote:wasnt the BBC in east asia to shoot varous famous ma's masters, so they stayed several months in east asia ?

wasnt this in the early 80's ?
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