How to train Xingyi for health

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:29 pm

Bob wrote:In the same way you would treat running, swimming etc. etc.. For example, using running to keep fit would not necessitate training for a marathon or say for hurdles (which I did a billion years ago). I don't separate out any of the above you listed.

I am more interested in one's approach to a routine that emphasized health i.e. Musculoskeletal fitness, Mind/body, and/or Qi/tcm.


Then it's fitness you want. There are three basic components of fitness: strength, aerobic cardio,and anaerobic cardio.

My general advice would be to not overtrain santi or the five fists. The variety that they offer is not enough and if you train them seriously everyday, you will likely overtrain them (possible tendonitis) without getting much in the way of fitness results. you will also adapt to them fairly quickly meaning you get less fitness over time. This is noticed by checking your heart rate.

The 12 animals and the forms are better. Strength training is hard with MA but dragon done with deep stances and the jumping kick comes to mind. I would do the animals in wide, long stances and emphasize stretching the techniques out to build power in the body. for strength, i don't like long pole exercises since they tend to be overdone and rely too much on delicate wrist, elbow, and shoulder muscles. The moves are all too similar. I prefer staff exercises and forms since they move a lot more,especially double ended staff. Notice that footwork is involved in the staff forms where long pole rarely has that.

For aerobic and an-aerobic conditioning,I suggest the following. All forms train an-aerobic conditioning already. They are fairly short,after all. Do lines of the animals as basic conditioning and keep track of your heart rate all the while you're doing them. If your heart rate gets above 150 after a line then wait until it drops to 120 or so before you do the next one. At around 150,your performance will suffer and you will get exhausted if you aren't used to it. Training according to heart rate will give you feedback so you can gradually increase your volumeof training to continue getting results. You'll notice some animals get your heart rate upmore than others so be smart in how they're combined by stacking easier animals after harder ones and you can train more volume.

Take several of your forms and write the names on a white board or notebook. Do one round of a form at about 50-75% speed then put a hash mark after that form. that's one rep. wait about :30-1:00 until your heart rate slows down then do another rep of that form or do a seperate form(s). What we're doing now is taking an-aerobic training and getting aerobic results from it. This is great for fat loss. You rest just enough to let the heart rate slow and you dont dothe forms at full speed and power unless you're at a high level of fitness. Try to get 30-40 reps of various forms in an hour for a good conditioning workout. You don't need to do the same forms everyday, either. The next day do completely different forms if you have them so you don't overtrain certain movements.

If people have forms from multiple styles then that's even better. Mix the forms you do each day from various styles and you get a greater variety of stances, stance height, technique work, flexibility, etc. all in one hour.

If you don't have enough xingyi forms, Di Guo-yong's Hebei stuff is fairly standard and easy to pickup. Li Tian-ji's book has most of the forms and is available from Andrea Falk.

The biggest issue I've seen with martial artists training for fitness is to get away from what the so-called "masters" say and start using smart fitness programming. You'd get a lot more done in a short amount of time allowing folks to lose fat, maintain their skills, and stay within their styles. This is how i trained CMA at my gym so i can speak for its efficacy personally.
Check out my school/gym: http://formosafitness.pixnet.net/blog
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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:31 pm

johnwang wrote:
If fighting is my CMA goal, I'll not change my goal just because my age.


agree with this although I use the word "functional" instead of "fighting"
the idea that by being functional as in a tool . One has a tool, but does need to use it...

In general one has to be fit in order to practice,
the practice is not designed specifically to make one fit irregardless
of any fitness benefits gained.

Any thing done in the name of the practice is done to make it more functional...
In the old days there were practices that in hindsight were probably not healthy for the body
but good in gaining a particular functionality thought to be key in enabling a function.

a good analogy might be dancers ie ballet

Image

They combine that strength with a grace that comes from practicing the same moves over and over and over until it looks as if it's weightless. It breaks a body. Most ballet dancers are completely shot by their mid-20s, and many will suffer lifelong disabilities from the effort


The same can be said of other arts muy thai comes to mind.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:57 pm

I don't think XY 5 elements is good for health. It has no kick. Without kick, I can't develop single leg balance. I can drill XY 5 elements 20 times each (5 x 20 = 100) and I feel nothing. But if I drill front keel kick, front toes kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, inside crescent kick 20 times each (5 x 20 = 100), I can feel good work out.
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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby Strange on Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:18 pm

Beng quan have a kick
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby Overlord on Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:52 pm

johnwang wrote:I don't think XY 5 elements is good for health. It has no kick. Without kick, I can't develop single leg balance. I can drill XY 5 elements 20 times each (5 x 20 = 100) and I feel nothing. But if I drill front keel kick, front toes kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, inside crescent kick 20 times each (5 x 20 = 100), I can feel good work out.


Zhou Jiannan 周劍南 one of the last Taiwan XY expert live to his 90s, stress on importance of ZZ after what ever physical you do, especially in CMA. You don’t do ZZ 收功, you no do XY.
-saber-


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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:48 pm

Overlord wrote:You don’t do ZZ 收功, you no do XY.

Running water won't grow bugs. 人挪活树挪死 - If you move a tree, that tree will die. If you move a person, that person will live longer.

- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than to be dead.
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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby Overlord on Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:17 pm

johnwang wrote:
Overlord wrote:You don’t do ZZ 收功, you no do XY.

Running water won't grow bugs. 人挪活树挪死 - If you move a tree, that tree will die. If you move a person, that person will live longer.

- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than to be dead.

John
I do believe you should exercise. Don’t get me wrong. But that is exercise.
But if you were talking about Xingyi and well-being, I gave u old master’s understanding in Xingyi.
Most of the people run or jump already~
-saber-


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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:21 am

Dead < laying down < sitting < standing < walking < running

You should get better "health" result from this:



instead of from this:

Image
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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby Bob on Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:33 am

why not both?

Learn this Si Lu Ben Da a billion years ago - no longer retrievable! LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWY4joNlUk



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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Bob wrote:why not both?

If I can train the application of my horse stance, I prefer not to train my static horse stance (have done that enough when I was young).

You should not stay in grade school (build your foundation) and refuse to graduate. One day you will have to move into high school (build your application) even if you may not have made all "A" score (100% solid foundation) in your grade school yet.

Image

Image
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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:34 pm

The purpose of your XY training is

- to be able to knock your opponent down by 1 punch.
- not how good/long that you can do your ZZ.
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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby GrahamB on Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:56 pm

This XYLH teacher is 80 years old and looks like he's in amazing shape for his age. His training doesn't look easy either. It looks like hard physcial work.

Perhaps that is the key for "health" Xing Yi - stop taking it easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eIfL33F9cs

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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:43 pm

Overlord wrote: You don’t do ZZ 收功, you no do XY.

- Baji has Baji Ja.
- Gong Li has Gong Li Ja.
- Yan Qin has Yan Qin Ja.
- SC has 13 Taibao.
- XY has ZZ.

All are used to build up foundation. After you have built your foundation, you will need to build your house (application).

Staying in grade school forever won't earn you a PhD degree.
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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby Overlord on Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:53 pm

johnwang wrote:The purpose of your XY training is

- to be able to knock your opponent down by 1 punch.
- not how good/long that you can do your ZZ.


Shang Yunxiang said you need to seperate btw physical activity and resting cultivation.
1、動靜有別。
Always learning how to kill a person with a punch, but ending up kill oneself with punch.
2、学形意拳的都在学打死人,最终把自己打死了。
-saber-


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Re: How to train Xingyi for health

Postby dspyrido on Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:03 pm

The problem with 5 elements is that many younger people train it like they are old or infirm.

The one thing that XYLH teaches is this:

Image Image

Sink the legs right down -> GO LOWER LONGER FASTER!

5 elements can be & should eventually be done really low. Some do it this way.

When it is done low the legs will build crazy strength. When the movement is done continuously the elasticity will grow. When the stepping is done wide and long the power comes together in everything.

Even heel stepping I believe improves the bone structure and ability to take impact.

Every step becomes a kick. Every punch is driven through legs.

And this drilling & focus is then repeated through the core & the arms. - first lower, then middle then upper.

Drilling this means the mind overcomes the greatest battle most people have to go through - getting up and doing stuff. It's one thing to be genetically strong or to be a full time personal trainer, physical athlete or hard laborer. It's another to have a sedentary day job/occupation, stress about finance, responsibilities like family, constant fear media bombardment, be overstimulated & caffeinated, overfed with too much sugar and salt and...

GET UP AND DRILL THIS STUFF (OR ANY HARD TRAINING) TO THE POINT OF NEAR FAILURE.

Then do it all again. Consistently.

This is the battle most ordinary people face.
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