Five bows issue together

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Five bows issue together

Postby Yeung on Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:34 am

There is the saying of “five bows issue together(五弓齐发 wǔ gōng qí fā)” in Xingyiquan.

Five bows are the two arms, two legs, and torso which are associated with the nine sets of joints to form the kinetic chain of Xingyiquan. I think this is a useful concept in issuing power in the five element fists.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby AJG on Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:16 am

Last time i checked i had two arms, two legs and a torso. So does that automatically give me Xingyiquan power ?
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:09 am

AJG wrote:Last time i checked i had two arms, two legs and a torso. So does that automatically give me Xingyiquan power ?


If you coordinate them together correctly according to XY principles, then yes.

齐 means identical or simultaneous. So it means that you must use the five bows simultaneously, all together in the same way. Next time you check, maybe you can see if you can use them simultaneously all together? :P
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:22 pm

If power has to come from your back leg, to your hip, spine, and then reach to your arm, should there be some delay between the back lag and leading arm?

In theory, when you back foot press down on the ground, your hand has not moved yet.

In this clip, when he moves his right leg, his left hand has not started to move yet. There is a delay in between.

Image
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:29 pm

Or make it simple. The heel of the back leg moves backward and fist of the hand moves forward together. It's another option.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:37 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:Or make it simple. The heel of the back leg moves backward and fist of the hand moves forward together. It's another option.

But there is still some delay which violate the 5 bows theory. You can't move your arm until the energy has reached to your shoulder from your back leg.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:47 pm

You can't move your arm until the energy has reached to your shoulder from your back leg.


Yes, it is the transmission of power from the leg to the arm. Another option is like to inflate a balloon so the power comes out to every direction. In this situation, the heel is the point for action and reaction whereas the heel and arm move out at the same time.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:56 pm

suckinlhbf wrote: Another option is like to inflate a balloon so the power comes out to every direction.

Are you saying that there is another way of power generation that's not:

- bottom -> up,
- back -> front?

Do you have any clip to prove it?
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:58 pm

the power is already, there there is no delay,
5 or 6 bows refers to the the cumulative effect of being able to release them as one
The release can be whole body, or directed to a point.

But there is still some delay which violate the 5 bows theory. You can't move your arm until the energy has reached to your shoulder from your back leg.


This description fits "wave theory".

bow theory means the points have a stored potential ie a bow,,,its not a sequential release.

Potential energy is stored in a bow and when we release it its potential energy gets converted to kinetic energy.
When the bow is pulled back the energy is stored in form of potential energy.


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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:03 pm

Clip, clip, and more clip.

Please show me a clip of "inflate a balloon so the power comes out to every direction".

Something like this? But the arms are not in function.

Image
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:11 pm

Social distancing....Can't get someone to demonstrate....

This article describes some of it.
https://nathanbrine.com/liuhebafa/

Just look at the part that you want to see.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:22 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:Social distancing....Can't get someone to demonstrate....

This article describes some of it.
https://nathanbrine.com/liuhebafa/

Just look at the part that you want to see.

If the key to tai chi is relaxation, then the key to liuhebafa is connection.



Very nice
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:00 pm

1. How to prove that 5 bows issue together is possible?
2. What's the application for it?
3. Can we show some fact instead of just the theory?

When I was 11, my brother in law taught me to dig a small hole. I stood inside the hole and tried to jump up. The hole was so small that I could only bend my knee 1/2 way. My brother in law told me that if I could jump out of that hole when the depth was about my chest height, I should have no problem to jump on top of the roof. He also told me that his father could do it. Also one of his brothers could do it too. Since he could not do it (to prove in front of my eyes), I lose faith in that training method.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby Subitai on Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:00 pm

5 bows concept is in my teaching... just remember a bow flexes and releases.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 75#p449884


To partly answer Johns questions i'd say,

1st, is structure testing (which is common for many CMA schools) & is one way to prove that "5 bows of the body are being utilized." That's how I would say it...but if someone else wants to say "issue together", go for it.

2nd, the application is built into the structure. In Taiji, is there any school that teaches to HOLD your arms out (Locked straight) like Frankenstein? = No


Image


3rd, it's not just theory.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby Trick on Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:49 am

johnwang wrote:If power has to come from your back leg, to your hip, spine, and then reach to your arm, should there be some delay between the back lag and leading arm?

In theory, when you back foot press down on the ground, your hand has not moved yet.

In this clip, when he moves his right leg, his left hand has not started to move yet. There is a delay in between.

Image

In many cases standing by the sideline observing is quite different than standing right in front trying
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