the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

windwalker wrote:some of the work we do

Finally we have seen some "application" clip. In this clip, his right arm bow doesn't need to be issued.

Here’s a clip that covers a few different bases (pushing, strike or throw, etc) but mainly is the need to contain a Fa, until the opportunity to Release. Also the Dragon Bagua fighting system (which is what’s being shown in the clip), can make use of the spine bow being used forwards and in reverse (fan) and back and forth in rapid succession (as he demonstrates in the high and low hands continuously hitting:

D_Glenn wrote:Here’s a clip that covers a few different bases (pushing, strike or throw, etc) but mainly is the need to contain a Fa,

I always have issue with Fa. If Fa is a

- strike, it's not as powerful as a punch.
- throw, he needs to control his opponent's leg.

IMO, the leg bow should be fully utilized.





Some leg bow requires extra training.

You can add in the secondary power of the lumbar (Fa) to any strike, punch or throw. Essentially it’s just adding in the movement of the Transverse Abdominal muscle, which can be trained to be the strongest muscle in your body. It adds a ton of power. That’s why he isn’t using it on the student, something could injured.

Dragon doesn’t really get into the ankle attacking. That’s more trained in the Monkey system.

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windwalker wrote:If one accepts the theory of 5 bows.
An interesting question might be
What is the draw weight
What determines this
Why?

Gravity

Drake wrote:

windwalker wrote:If one accepts the theory of 5 bows.
An interesting question might be
What is the draw weight
What determines this
Why?

Gravity

draw weight refers to the amount of force needed to cause The deformation needed in the bow
To store, potential energy.

There’s a number of factors that come into play when selecting a bow.
Draw weight one of them.

The reference to 5 bows, refers to the parts of the body used to store the energy
the body itself is considered as 1 bow.

My answer to the question, is 4oz.

Others may feel different based on their own reasoning and ability.

John,

Here’s some clips showing some of the Monkey System (which is focused on leg to leg attacks, defense against kicks, and using kicks in combination with stepping and tripping up the opponent. The hands are like feet while the legs become your hands. You can also learn to add the power of the lumbar and abdomen (spine bow ‘Fa’) into your kicking.)





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Gravity

Gravity can be used in many ways. One is to use the gravity to send the whole body to the target. It is like a hammer hit a nail.
One is to drop the whole body straight down using gravity. There will be a rebounce from the ground up into the body. Expand the body at the same time with intent to the target. It is like five bows issue together, or one big bow. If one wants, one may say energy from the ground up to explose like a bomb.
One is to use gravity to dissipate power or redirect power.

D_Glenn wrote:

This is an excellent clip. It shows a very important principle:

After you have controlled on your opponent's leading arm, attack his back leg if you can. If you can't reach to his back leg, attack his front leg first, when he steps back, you then attack his back leg.

Just by using this one simple principle, you can train over 100 different set up sequences. You leg skill will start to be developed.

John, thanks for your reply. That’s actually incredibly helpful, even though it’s a simple concept.

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The reference to “one body equips [with] five bows (一身备五弓Yīshēn bèi wǔ gong)” and “five bows combine [as] one (五弓合一wǔ gōng hé yī)” can be find in Zhongguo Wushu Shiyong Daguqn by Kang Gewu (1990, pages 555-556) in Chinese. He suggested that the Taijiquan metaphor of store and issue like bow and arrow requires the combination of five bows into one. The way he gets around the argument is by saying that the spine or torso issues the dominant force with assistance from arms and legs.

I think it makes sense if you look at the bow and arrow as two sets of muscles coordinating together to restore and issue. It is not difficult to sort out the functions of the arms as one bow, the legs as one bow, and issue together with the spine. This does not contradict the Taijiquan concepts of strength or force issue from the spine, continuity, and one moves all moves, etc. This bring us back to the fundamental question of using brute force or concentric muscle contraction, as it is not possible to activate the elastic component of the body to store up energy for issuing. People cannot tell the difference when they are doing low intensive activities.

Yeung wrote:The reference to “one body equips [with] five bows (一身备五弓Yīshēn bèi wǔ gong)” and “five bows combine [as] one (五弓合一wǔ gōng hé yī)” can be find in Zhongguo Wushu Shiyong Daguqn by Kang Gewu (1990, pages 555-556) in Chinese. He suggested that the Taijiquan metaphor of store and issue like bow and arrow requires the combination of five bows into one. The way he gets around the argument is by saying that the spine or torso issues the dominant force with assistance from arms and legs.

I think it makes sense if you look at the bow and arrow as two sets of muscles coordinating together to restore and issue. It is not difficult to sort out the functions of the arms as one bow, the legs as one bow, and issue together with the spine. This does not contradict the Taijiquan concepts of strength or force issue from the spine, continuity, and one moves all moves, etc. This bring us back to the fundamental question of using brute force or concentric muscle contraction, as it is not possible to activate the elastic component of the body to store up energy for issuing. People cannot tell the difference when they are doing low intensive activities.

The Transverse Abdominal Muscles (TVA) are always working to hold our lumbar spine erect. It has a natural autonomic capability to be isometrically contracted. We can learn to access this and use that isometric to make the lumbar function like a bow, or a leaf spring. This function of the TVA is called ‘Zhedie’ (folding) of the waist (yao).

The TVA are also used to turn (zhuan) the waist/abdomen at its deepest core level (Dantian), which is called ‘Zhuanhuan’ (torquing) of the waist (Yao).

In Taijiquan there’s the saying ‘Attacking and Defending must use Zhuanhuan and Zhedie’.

https://www.verywellhealth.com/transverse-abdominal-muscle-297289


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The fasciae connected to the transiveraus abdominis are very complex but to activate these elastic components is relative easy in terms of the range of motion of the spine.

I came across the term Zhedie 折叠 in the 14 pushing hand routines approved by China’s national Wushu Association in 1994 trying to replace the pushing hand competitions. As I interpreted it, it involved twist turn to neutralize and compress the chest and abdomen to retaliate,

I use the term Zhuanhuan 转换 as to rotate the crotch to change the weight on one leg to the other.

All these torso movements are very important in generating the torso power like a bow so to speak.

As you probably know already, when modern day Taijiquan people see a term mentioned in the classic texts, alongside the words ‘must use’, then rest assured, they’re making something up out of thin air. Which is definitely the case for ‘Zhedie’.

Zhuanhuan is an easier term. It is accomplished and becomes a skill when all the spiraling and rotations of the arms and legs become connected and harmonized with the turning of the Dantian. But generally people who don’t know how to isolate the contractions of the Transverse Abdominal Muscles and have their, essentially guts, pulling the fascia and muscle-tendons of the rest of the body. And these people will say it’s just the windings and twisting of the body’s limbs and torso. Which is partially correct, but missing the idea that ‘Zhedie and Zhuanhuan’ are high level skills (meaning requires years of dedicated practice), and thereby become words that designate an achievement.

Once learned, they’re like switches, you can move without Zhedie and Zhuanhuan, and with them, in the blink of an eye. In middle of movements even. Because positioning yourself in relation to the opponent is usually more important than power. But you have to have the ability to access power at any point in a movement. So that’s why vastly more amounts of time is spent practicing with power. Moving normally through a martial art form is easy. You don’t have to spend a lot of time training that.

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Yeung wrote:I came across the term Zhedie 折叠 in the 14 pushing hand routines approved by China’s national Wushu Association in 1994 trying to replace the pushing hand competitions. As I interpreted it, it involved twist turn to neutralize and compress the chest and abdomen to retaliate,

Chen taiji has two methods of using the waist/yao

以腰爲軸
Yi yao wei zhou
Use the waist/lower back as an axis

胸腰折疊
Xiong yao zhe die
Chest and waist bend/fold

CXW taught these explicitly, but in speaking English for Yi yao wei zhou he said move side to side, and for Xiong yao zhe die he said move front to back. They are also used together so CXW called that a third movement.

Here is a video of Chen Bing doing Jingang dao dui.

0:19 - 0:25 Xiong yao zhe die
0:25 - 0:29 combined
0:29 - 0:32 Yi yao wei zhou
0:44 - 0:46 Xiong yao zhe die