Five bows issue together

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Five bows issue together

Postby robert on Tue May 05, 2020 12:08 pm

Yeung wrote:I came across the term Zhedie 折叠 in the 14 pushing hand routines approved by China’s national Wushu Association in 1994 trying to replace the pushing hand competitions. As I interpreted it, it involved twist turn to neutralize and compress the chest and abdomen to retaliate,

Chen taiji has two methods of using the waist/yao

以腰爲軸
Yi yao wei zhou
Use the waist/lower back as an axis

胸腰折疊
Xiong yao zhe die
Chest and waist bend/fold

CXW taught these explicitly, but in speaking English for Yi yao wei zhou he said move side to side, and for Xiong yao zhe die he said move front to back. They are also used together so CXW called that a third movement.

Here is a video of Chen Bing doing Jingang dao dui.

0:19 - 0:25 Xiong yao zhe die
0:25 - 0:29 combined
0:29 - 0:32 Yi yao wei zhou
0:44 - 0:46 Xiong yao zhe die

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby D_Glenn on Tue May 05, 2020 12:35 pm

I don’t see any Zhedie in that clip. It’s only used in chen fajin

陈式太极拳之---胸腰折叠训练方法
胸腰折叠,是陈式太极拳锻炼要领之一。其要旨,在于强调以丹田为枢纽的躯干部位的松柔、灵活而有力的运化功能。古拳论云:打拳“紧要处全在胸中腰间运化。”而胸腰运化的特征,即表现在胸腰折叠。

  折叠一词系借用其一往一复、一开一合的含义。胸腰折叠的实质就是指胸腰的开合、屈伸、鹦放、旋转。《太极拳表解》云:叠,有转换。”折叠者,无非是借用折扇、叠被、折叠衣物之比喻,而表述胸腰运动中的一开一合、一屈一伸、一左一右、一收一放、顺逆螺旋之变化。故拳论有云:“往复须有折叠。”反映在技击上,这种折叠劲则用于“声东击西,就左先右,造势借力”的战术之中。陈照奎老师把这种折叠劲称之谓“蛹动劲。”他常以蚕蛹,蛇、毛毛虫之类的虫蛇躯体节节贯串进退之状,来形容太极拳运动中人体胸腰运化之貌,而谓之曰“犹尤似蛇”。

  陈照奎老师还常说:胸腰者,人体之“大本营”也。他又比喻:胸腰部位,如同棋盘上的老将、老帅,不能轻易随便移动。根据陈式太极拳宗师陈长兴公(号称“牌位)真传拳架的规矩,胸腰这一躯干部位,必须保持端正,不允许左歪右斜,前俯后仰、摇头晃肩、来回摇晃,同时,另一方面又要求它松柔、灵活,屈伸自由,旋转自如,有开有合,能吞能吐。一句话,既要中正,又要灵活。回忆我刚跟先师学拳之时,常常受到的批评是:虽然上身比较端正,胸腰却铁板一块;可是,另一方面他又常批评他的一位侄子是“水蛇腰”、“扭屁股吊腰”,胸腰活得过火了。由此可见,如何无过而又无不及地把握太极拳的胸腰运化问题确是值得我们研究的一个重要课题。

  一、胸腰运化的生理机制

  要弄明白胸腰运化的规律,首先要弄清人体胸腰部位的结构及其生理机制。

  人体的胸部和腰部,是由起支柱作用的脊柱贯串其间的。脊柱构**体的中轴,成年人脊柱共26节,劲椎7节、胸椎12节、腰椎15节、一个骶骨和一个尾骨,借助椎间盘、韧带连结而成。脊柱上端托着头颅,其胸段、腰段和骶尾段,分别构成胸腔、腹腔和盆腔臂的一部分。

{Chen style taijiquan - the method of 'Folding the waist and chest' (xiong yao zhedie)
'Folding the waist and chest' (xiong yao zhedie) is one of the most important points of Chen style TJQ's practice. The important thing
is that everything depends upon the Dantian to be the hub of all movement of the body, and everything else around it is moved by/ because of it. Flexible yet strong, capable of determined movement or transforming to the situation. Old martial texts say: "To fight, it is critical that every movement is controlled by the center of the chest and waist, moving or transforming aka attacking or defending." [There is a double meaning where the whole of your body is under control by your mind, but the mind is sunk down to the dantian, or your dantian is the mind in a fight.] Even though the chest and waist moving and transforming is distinctive it may not be manifesting 'Folding (Zhedie)'.
'Folding (Zhedie)' is a single term that connects a whole sequence of movements and other more complex terminology into one single, simple word. The one word means - to open (kai) and close (he) and is implied when it's used.'Folding (Zhedie)' means to open and close, to bend and extend, to capture and release, to revolve and turn.
Taijiquan practitioners of old say "Folding is linked with 'Turning-changing' (Zhuanhuan). Zhedie is compared to a folding chinese paper or silk fan (Zheshan). The fabric is folded into pleats, and the spine and front of the chest is likened to the perfect opening and closing of a fan. Bending and stretching. Being put away or whipped open. Moving with (shun) or moving against (Ni). Spiraling (Luoxuan). It changes. [Basically Zhedie movement has opening and closing but the Zhuanhuan movement also has it's own opening and closing. A movement within another movement.]
Boxers of old say: "To go out and comeback there must be 'Zhedie'". So before one obtains skills of striking, this Zhedie Jin (Folding Power) must be understood and able to be used. "Threaten to the east, attack to the west, or attack the left, but strike with the right, or promote power borrow strength." is a common tactical concept [but...]. Teacher Chen Zhaokui said that 'Zhedie Jin' is another way to say "Yong Dong Jin" (Chrysalis/pupa Moving Power). He often said it's like a Silkworm Pupa (Canyong), snake, or caterpillar, and such, worm-like bodies that move an inch at a time, connected end to end simultaneously advancing and retreating. In TJQ the middle of the person's body can move in the same manner, and it's said that the person has the ability to move like a snake. Chen Zhaokui often said the chest and waist of the human body are the headquarters/ base camp [from which the martial military is directed.]

He also compares the chest and small of the back to being like the King moving on the chessboard and you can't just move it rashly or randomly, the movements have to be precise. According to Chen TJQ grandmaster Chen Changxing the traditional teachings say the chest and waist are together within the torso, and the torso should not crooked to the right or left, not rocking back and forth, not shaking the head or wiggling the shoulders, on the other hand it requires that the torso is relaxed and supple, nimble and agile, freely able to bend and stretch, smoothly rotate and turn, able to open and able to close, the ability to suck-in (Tun) and the ability to blow-out (Tu). The middle of the body must be both solid and strong and flexible and agile. I remember a time when teacher would criticize me for having a torso that was like a stiff iron plate, yet at the same time criticize another student for having a torso too supple and loose like a women waving and wiggling her ass. So the key is to have the chest and waist be lively but not too much. So what is important is that without practice and guidance it is hard to understand how the chest and waist are used to power movement and transform, so it's important to have experienced people work together to solve this major problem.

1. Understanding the movement of the chest and waist as a physiological mechanism.
It is important to figure out how the movement functions according to strict rules. It demands that one knows how the chest and small of the back function structurally and the physiological mechanisms of their movement. The solar plexus, ribs, chest and small of the back must work together and coordinate as they're the backbone for the movement of the spinal column being connected end to end. The spinal column is the central axis. The adult spinal column has 26 palpable nodes/ ridges - the cervical spine has 7, thoracic spine has 12 ridges, and the lumbar has 7, then the sacrum and tailbone. It moves via discs between vertebrae and ligaments and joints. The top of the spine supports the head, the thoracic section is the 'Chest' (Xiong) and the rest (lumbar, sacrum, and tailbone) is the 'waist' (yao) section. The Chest is the whole thoracic cavity, while the Waist is the whole abdominal cavity and the pelvic cavity.}
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby robert on Tue May 05, 2020 2:20 pm

Good post Glenn. At a seminar in Canada Yang Zhenduo said:

The traditional Yang style is characterized by movements which are slow, smooth and even. The energy is retained inside the body, rather than displayed openly. It is soft outside, but hard within! This is much misunderstood. There must be real power inside, not nothing but softness.

The movement is not suppose to be displayed in taiji. This is one reason taiji is so hard to learn. The first couple workshops I did with CXW he asked if people wanted to feel his dantian. I did. I put my right hand on his belly and he then took my left hand and put it on his lumbar spine. There wasn't any noticeable visible movement, but I could feel movement in both the rear and front of his waist.
In xingyi they sometimes talk about three levels of skill - ming jin is obvious, an jin is hidden, and hua jin is mysterious. Chen village taiji talks about going from large circles to small circles. FWIW.

In the still picture I see of the video, CB has his right leg raised and his back is clearly bowed.
Last edited by robert on Tue May 05, 2020 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby D_Glenn on Tue May 05, 2020 5:25 pm

Yeah throughout the form, and when doing it slow, one is constantly bowing and releasing the spine. But at slow speed, the movement is only a close approximation of the Bao Fali (explosive release of power). Because some of the tissues that harmonize your hands with the Dantian, don’t react the same way when moving slow versus fast. And, when moving slow you can’t have that harmony with your legs.

So it’s an approximation of Zhedie.

CXW told me, something like, “Everyone is always asking about Pao Chui, and the 3rd form. Saying they want to learn Fali in every movement. They don’t understand that every movement in the first form should be learned using Fali. I [CXW] divided the form into sections. Each section has 1 Traditional movement where you Fali. But you need to train each movement in that section as the Fali. Pick a different movement every week. You can do every movement with FaLi, in a row, making it like the 3rd form, or like the 18 elbows. But generally Chen Taiji wants more storing than releasing.”
The first couple workshops I did with CXW he asked if people wanted to feel his dantian. I did. I put my right hand on his belly and he then took my left hand and put it on his lumbar spine.

Cool. CXW also let me feel his Dantian when he was doing his ‘Silk Reeling drills’. The skill of his Zhuanhuan to affect and move the fascia that links his Dantian to his arm is crazy. My teacher can do the same thing, but it’s always an eerie experience, like an alien inside.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Wed May 06, 2020 8:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby D_Glenn on Wed May 06, 2020 8:54 am

Chen Changxin’s saying, should be translated more like “Don’t have a waist/ lumbar that’s as stiff as an iron frying pan, but also don’t let it be as loose as a prostitute who’s trying to attract customers.”
:D
But I tried to keep it clean.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Wed May 06, 2020 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby Yeung on Wed May 06, 2020 1:36 pm

Feng Zhiqiang (1928-2012) used Xiong Fu 胸腹 chest and abdomen for Yao in his works. In southern martial arts, practitioners strap their waists similar to weightlifters’ belts to protect themselves, and that will limit the movement of the waist. Yao 腰 refers to the midsection of the torso, and also use for kidney. In Ancient Chinese clothing the belt is in the midsection or chest/waist as in the following 7th Century painting:
Image
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby robert on Thu May 07, 2020 12:21 pm

FWIW:

Jarek Szymanski: Is Qi related to Dantian?

MR.FENG ZHIQIANG: Dantian is closely related to movements of the waist. In microscale it is the center of the body - point between belly button and Mingmen, where Qi originates from. In macroscale it covers whole body. In order to develop Dantian one should start from standing exercises and collect and nourish Qi - first focus Intention on the center of the body. Once the Qi in the body becomes abundant, one feels warm and movement inside. Then Dantian breathing should be used to induce the outside movement of the body with internal movement. When Intention and Qi are coordinated, Dantian turns and Qi flows freely in the whole body. All parts of the body move in a round way. This is Hunyuan.

...

JS: Is Dantian movement usefull in fighting?

MR.FENG: The body moves as a cordinated whole because of Dantian movement. While issuing power (Fa Li) Dantian turns and the whole body power is focused in one point. In this way the power issued can penetrate the bones of the opponent. While issuing power the body should be relaxed, but one should be very conscious about so-called "Shaking Power" (Dou Jin). This power has to be focused and not scattered all over the body. The more advanced one is, the smaller the shaking. When we were learning Taijiquan from Chen Fake shaking the body in Fa Li was the greatest taboo to be avoided.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby Yeung on Fri May 08, 2020 2:38 am

The Dantian is the centre of mass, that sort of linked the five bows together as one.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby Trick on Fri May 08, 2020 8:18 am

when i initially asked my yiquan teacher in beijing about dantian, he said the whole body is dantian, and continued "now, stop bother your mind about locate a dantian so we can continue with our practice", i also asked about qi, then he got irritated, and once again said "stop thinking about such things, yi is what matter". i followed his advice and things came crystal clear
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby johnwang on Fri May 08, 2020 12:13 pm

Trick wrote:stop thinking about such things,

Through your life, have you ever met someone who has reached to the 4th level, 3rd level, 2nd level, or even 1st level?

1. 煉精化氣 -> 2. 煉氣化神 -> 3. 煉神返虛 -> 4. 白曰飛升

1. Jing -> Qi
2. Qi -> Shen
3. Shen -> Xu
4. Flying to heaven

Last edited by johnwang on Fri May 08, 2020 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby windwalker on Fri May 08, 2020 3:03 pm

Trick wrote:when i initially asked my yiquan teacher in beijing about dantian, he said the whole body is dantian, and continued "now, stop bother your mind about locate a dantian so we can continue with our practice", i also asked about qi, then he got irritated, and once again said "stop thinking about such things, yi is what matter". i followed his advice and things came crystal clear


like this teachers work, touches some of the points raised here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby greytowhite on Fri May 15, 2020 10:52 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:stop thinking about such things,

Through your life, have you ever met someone who has reached to the 4th level, 3rd level, 2nd level, or even 1st level?

1. 煉精化氣 -> 2. 煉氣化神 -> 3. 煉神返虛 -> 4. 白曰飛升

1. Jing -> Qi
2. Qi -> Shen
3. Shen -> Xu
4. Flying to heaven



All 4 yes, a few different people from the United States even. My Daoist and Tibetan Vajrayana teacher had these achievements, he used bagua as a vehicle to teach these things, least martial but most enlightening classes.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby Bao on Sat May 16, 2020 7:37 am

I don’t know if it’s necessary to wait ten years before trying to feel the dantian. But I don’t know if it’s really necessary trying to “feel” the dantian at all. I see it more as a natural progression. First learn to stand aligned, relax, understand centerline, move as a whole. When everything comes together you will learn to relax more and deeper while maintaining alignment and balance. When all of this comes naturally together, the feeling the body better and being more conscious about the center and the dantian should be a natural consequence, as moving from the dantian will already be there regardless of how strong your direct awareness about the dantian is.
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby robert on Sat May 16, 2020 9:34 am

Bao wrote:I don’t know if it’s necessary to wait ten years before trying to feel the dantian. But I don’t know if it’s really necessary trying to “feel” the dantian at all. I see it more as a natural progression. First learn to stand aligned, relax, understand centerline, move as a whole. When everything comes together you will learn to relax more and deeper while maintaining alignment and balance. When all of this comes naturally together, the feeling the body better and being more conscious about the center and the dantian should be a natural consequence, as moving from the dantian will already be there regardless of how strong your direct awareness about the dantian is.

I agree. In another thread someone posted something from Liu Dianchen's xingyi manual. I liked a number of things in it, including this -

The elixir field is the source of the active aspect, the mansion of energy and power. If you want to be proficient in the art, you must first strengthen your elixir field, and if you want to strengthen your elixir field, you must first practice the art. The back-and-forth of the two will solidify each other.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Five bows issue together

Postby Bao on Sat May 16, 2020 2:01 pm

robert wrote:”The back-and-forth of the two will solidify each other “


Like it. I have always thought that there are many things in IMA that reflects each other. Tai Chi Form and Push Hands for instance. What you learn in PH you should continue to practice in your form and standing exercises. As you develop your form and standing, you will use the gained knowledge here to boost your PH. It’s a constant back and forth process. This is also why I believe that starting with partner exercises early is very important, otherwise you don’t get this bouncing back and forth effect and then your overall progress will become much slower if you approach Tai Chi from a more linear learning. Standing and form is great, but it’s when you learn to keep the integrity of stances when someone tries to push you off balance your real progress in standing will begin.

Health and martial arts aspects have the same type of communication where one aspect strengthen the other.
Last edited by Bao on Sat May 16, 2020 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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