Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby Henry on Fri May 08, 2020 7:52 am

Liu de Kuan's straight line method seems to appear in a lot of bagua styles inlcuding the gao style of the cheng branch, Liang and in some Yin styles also.

Anyone know if Liu had his own crop of descendants who learnt his bagua zhang and his spear methods only or was it just his own methods that got absorbed into the bigger more established Bagua Schools at the time. Are the spear methods we see in the cheng style and the double headed spear derived from his practices or input?
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Re: Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby nicklinjm on Fri May 08, 2020 7:47 pm

There is some info in English about Liu Dekuan's main disciples here:

One of the funny things about Liu's teaching is that most of the people who practice his material gain access to it through other styles of bagua (Cheng, Yin, Gao), because of his exchanges with other styles - AFAIK there are relatively few lines which can be said to come directly from Liu.

That being said, there are definitely groups coming directly from LDK which still practice his material today, for example Cao Fengqi (LDK -> Liu Caichen -> Ma Yuqing -> Cao) or also the Simin Martial Society in Beijing (Geng Jishan / Liu Dekuan -> Deng Yunfeng -> Wu Zizhen -> Niu Baogui).

His 64 hands set is a real martial arts treasure, v practical and immediately applicable. Don't know much about his spear methods, will let other board members chime in on that one.
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Re: Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby edededed on Mon May 11, 2020 6:05 pm

Bagua spear apparently mostly comes from Liu Dekuan, who learned from Dong Haichuan (but also had much prior spear skill). Today, many of the spear sets have the same names (like zhanshenqiang, "fighting body spear"), but may look different from each other. I guess that Liu Dekuan was a nice guy who shared much with his bagua family (also 64 hands, qinna, etc.).

In my experience the double-headed spear methods are the most distinct, being quite different from normal spear usage. These are more often practiced on a circle than the single spear methods, are so are perhaps "more bagua."
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