Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby zrm on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:26 am

LDK linear 64 palms seems to be primarily based on Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou 64 set. LDK version appears to be have been modified to use some Liu He Men / Bagua / Xing Yi movements though.


Liu He Men is mainly long fist. After you learn the basic forms, there is form with an emphasis on agility that has some twisting movements called Qing Long (green dragon). Circle walking even appears in a very short section. I can't find a decent demonstration of it online though. Either way, if it had an influence on Baguazhang it would have been pretty minor. While there might be some outside influences to Baguazhang in regards to certain key movements and applications, I think the core bio-mechanical part of Baguazhang (as in the bit that makes it Baguazhang as opposed to something else) started with DHC.
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Re: Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby zrm on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:31 am

A teacher once told me that although Liu De Kuan was a disciple under DHC he did most of his bagua training with Cheng Ting Hua, and that LDK took responsibility over Cheng's Beijing Bagua school after Cheng died.
Last edited by zrm on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby greytowhite on Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:10 am

Just in case you were wondering where that circle walking stuff actually came from...

https://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-117 ... um_5_1_942
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Re: Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby edededed on Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:10 am

Thanks D_Glenn.

zrm: Hey, that bafanshou 64 set does look somewhat similar to the 64 hands set.
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Re: Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby Henry on Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:54 am

Zrm and Greytowhite,

Thanks for sharing that info,

ZRM there really does seem to be some linkage to the way the form is done and from a brief review (about 10-15mins) I can see a number of similar shapes and techniques.

Greytowhite, that's a very interesting article on taoist circle walking, going to take a while to digest all that info.


makes me wonder with the stuff i've been reading by Bruce Frantzis, talking about the daoist circle walking being a separate art, that exists of itself for health and longevity. (still i wonder if it was "imported" to the area by the time Liu Hong Chieh Arrived...)

Kinda set off a train of thought separate to this, 64 hands of liu de kuan. but, given that liu hong chieh, BKF's teacher studied daoist circle walking in Sichuan province, and the legends around Li Ching-Yuen (links to Nine Dragon Baguazhang etc), it makes me give "further food for thought" to the belief that Sichuan roots of the circle walking may have led to the creation of bagua zhang.
Last edited by Henry on Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liu de Kuan (Big Spear Liu) Linear Bagua and Spear

Postby zrm on Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:51 am

Early on Liu De Kuan studied Yue Jia San Shou via Liu Shi Jun as well as learning Liu He Men via Li Fenggang. There are both Yue style schools and Liu He style schools that list Liu De Kuan as part of the their lineage. He also cross trained Tai Chi with the Yang family when they were teaching the Wu guys.

Later in life he trained with both the Xing Yi and Baguazhang groups in Beijing. He also picked up Liu He Spear someplace and his nickname was Divine Spear Liu. I'm not sure if that is where Cheng Bagua spear comes from though. It wouldn't surprise me if he trained with the Yin Bagua school as well.

There is no doubt that circle walking as an exercise comes from before baguazhang. Ziranmen also has circle walking and it too is derived from the same Taoist exercises. But the originators of baguazhang and ziranmen were both literally famous for how well they could walk in a circle, which is a pretty strange thing to be famous for if you think about it. Du Xin Wu once did a stage performance that consisted entirely of circle walking and a local journalist ended up writing an article about how great it was in the newspaper. Who writes an article about something like that?

Regardless of the original origins it was the skill these masters developed and then showed off when they performed the exercise that made their martial arts famous for the technique.
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