Strength can be broken but not its intention

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby Yeung on Sat May 16, 2020 9:05 am

“Strength can be broken but not its intention” (劲断意不断Jìn duàn yì bùduàn) is an idiom from the Taijiquan classics. In practice, just stretch out your arm towards your opponent’s chest slowly as a palm strike and your opponent stop your advancement by push your palm back in alignment with your force, after a few seconds of stoppage and your opponent withdrew his or her hand you will continue slowly immediately in the direction of your intention. It does not work too well if you contract your arm to resist instead of just like pushing against a wall. I came across the Kohnstamm’s phenomenon or known as the floating arm trick while I was looking for the “post contraction sensory discharge”, and I think it will throw some light on this idiom:

The science of the floating arm trick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

Press the backs of your hands against the inside of a door frame for 30 seconds—as if you’re trying to widen the frame—and then let your arms down; you’ll feel something odd. Your arms will float up from your sides, as if lifted by an external force.
Last edited by Yeung on Sat May 16, 2020 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby everything on Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 am

I think these kinds of things might be good "gateway drugs" to start looking further.

- "internal" is not comprised of "nervous system tricks"
- "nervous system tricks" might give people some hint there might indeed be interesting stuff going on "inside"
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby Bao on Sat May 16, 2020 11:20 am

What would be practical use of this in combat or push hands? Any example?
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby GrahamB on Sat May 16, 2020 11:30 am

“Strength can be broken but not its intention” (劲断意不断Jìn duàn yì bùduàn) is an idiom from the Taijiquan classics.

Really?

I've found

"The jin is broken, but the Yi is not."

That's a bit different to "strength" - different meaning. Also the strength belonging (possessive) to the intent is also a different meaning to it not belonging to the intent, in English anyway.
Last edited by GrahamB on Sat May 16, 2020 11:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby Bao on Sat May 16, 2020 1:40 pm

That is correct, it should be Jin as in Tai Chi Jin.

My interpretation of the phrase is “Even if you give up (or lose) Jin the Yi will still always remain.”

Meaning that you can not always express Jin, or if you can not manifest Jin, you should still maintain the Yi that is the prerequisite of the Jin. If you lose your Yi, you will not be able to manifest the Jin.

It means something most practical IMO, that was why I asked about this because I can’t find much practically meaningful in the interpretation OP.
Last edited by Bao on Sat May 16, 2020 1:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby johnwang on Sat May 16, 2020 1:58 pm

Bao wrote:What would be practical use of this in combat or push hands? Any example?

Why should we care about something if it has no usage to combat?

Your

- arm has been cut off but you are still thinking about using your arm to punch.
- leg has been cut off but you are still thinking about using your leg to kick.
- little John has been cut off but you are still thinking about ...
- ...

Can we talk more realistic subject than abstract subject like this in RSF?
I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby Bao on Sat May 16, 2020 2:32 pm

johnwang wrote:
Can we talk more realistic subject than abstract subject like this in RSF?


Yes that was why I asked.
Last edited by Bao on Sat May 16, 2020 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby everything on Sat May 16, 2020 3:39 pm

welllllllllllll what's the practicality of strength and power? yes we can say it's all biomechanics and leverage and tricks, but those get really really boring to talk about as well. all the biomechanics isn't going to let any of us defeat fedor. yawn. marcelo garcia isn't going to defeat fedor, either.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby johnwang on Sat May 16, 2020 3:51 pm

Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:
Can we talk more realistic subject than abstract subject like this in RSF?

Yes that was why I asked.

When was the last time that we had ever discussed the most basic CMA subject such as "How to knock and open your opponent's door?"

I have decided to change all my solo drills into kick, punch, clinch, throw, and follow on strike. When I make this change, how to knock, and open my opponent's door is the number 1 thing that I have to consider.

I have started many non-abstract threads. Since RSF members all prefer abstract subject discussion, I took down those concrete discussion threads after I have found out that there was no respond.

Most of the time I feel that RSF members and I live on different planets.

I have just read something online that bother me big time.

現在國內江湖中人習武,大多都為了防身健體,就算功夫練到了家,也極少有什麼實戰經驗,讓他們打黑拳,純粹的送死

Today in China, people train CMA only for self-defense and health. Even if they have trained CMA to the highest level, since they don't have real combat experience, if you ask them to step into a ring, it will be a totally suicide.

在國內稱老大,但出了國門卻什麼都不是

You may be the best of the best in China, but when you test your skill in the global level, you will find out that you are nobody.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat May 16, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby suckinlhbf on Sat May 16, 2020 5:40 pm

You may be the best of the best in China, but when you test your skill in the global level, you will find out that you are nobody.


it is so true. Pick a regular training partner at least 50 lbs more and much younger than you is essential.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby Bao on Sun May 17, 2020 11:44 pm

現在國內江湖中人習武,大多都為了防身健體,就算功夫練到了家,也極少有什麼實戰經驗,讓他們打黑拳,純粹的送死

Today in China, people train CMA only for self-defense and health. Even if they have trained CMA to the highest level, since they don't have real combat experience, if you ask them to step into a ring, it will be a totally suicide.


Competing is not "real combat experience". Very few who already have stepped inte the ring has real combat experience. = real combat experience is not necessary for stepping into the ring. Competitions training and sparring is. A lot of of people practicing CMA do sparring regularly or combine with Sanda.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby Trick on Mon May 18, 2020 1:25 am

.Your

- arm has been cut off but you are still thinking about using your arm to punch.
- leg has been cut off but you are still thinking about using your leg to kick.
- little John has been cut off but you are still thinking about ...
- ...
Comes to mind, the spirit of the Black Knight in that Monty Python King Arthur’s movie
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby Taste of Death on Mon May 18, 2020 2:29 am

The Classics only make sense to those who know the art. But you once one knows the art one doesn't need to read the Classics. It only confirms what one already knows. It's not a how-to book.
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Re: Strength can be broken but not its intention

Postby Yeung on Mon May 18, 2020 7:53 am

The mind and body argument has been around for a long time, but this floating arm trick does not support the idiom of Jin and yi, as a voluntary movement trigger off an involuntary movement even if you change your intention. The science of it is interest and I will comeback to this when I read it again.
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