Origin of Taichi Explanation

[Bao]

The circling hands shows one "positive circles" and one "negative circle" with a transition between them. The positive and negative circles - Hong's terminology - are the basis of his style. I've never met a skilled Chen practitioner who practices tracing Taiji diagrams with hands or feet. The standard silk reeling exercises are the positive and negative circles. The positive circle is with the arm going out at the top of the circle, withdrawing at the bottom of the circle. The negative circle is the opposite: the arm withdrawing - towards the centreline - at the top of the circle, going out at the bottom of the circle. Each circle has half that is twisting the arm in one direction (shun) and half that it twisting the arm in the opposite direction (ni). Qi/jin goes out during the ni twisting, returns doing the shun twisting. Usually, opening occurs during ni, closing during shun. This is "standard" material taught by many teachers in Chen style Taijiquan.

I know that people Chen people use this diagram, but I don't agree that how Chen stylists does represents the drawing. Or that the drawing represents how Chen stylists do their standard silk reeling movements. That explanation came later.

....IMHO obviously....

[LaoDan]

I think that the diagram may be somewhat more than just an illustration of a concept. Although not an exact representation, notice how the lines smoothly connect the wrapping from the big toes and around the ankles to the knees to the hips, and from the middle finger through the palm to the wrists to the elbows to the shoulders. The torso is slightly less clear to my eye but it shows the lines starting at the dantien and crossing over from one side to the other in both the back and front of the torso. My understanding differs slightly in that, for example, the mingmen should be included in the energy pathway. Anyway, I think that the representation for the arms and the legs is reasonable as shown. The joints in the arms and legs are the only places that can bend for the limbs, and the wrapping around each joint seems reasonable to me; but the spine in capable of much more complex movement, and this is where I find the representation to be lacking (overly simplified?).

[Bao]

No, this one.



The text that references is as follows:

Long time since I read the book. The named confused me a bit. These are the Hetu and Luoshu. Luoshu is the diagram of the Luo document.
I have no idea where the diagram above in the book comes from:

[charles]

I know that people Chen people use this diagram, but I don't agree that how Chen stylists does represents the drawing. Or that the drawing represents how Chen stylists do their standard silk reeling movements. That explanation came later.

....IMHO obviously....

I don't know of ANY skilled Chen practitioner that uses or references that diagram as a practical training method or as a principle of practice. There are non-Chen practitioners who trace Taiji diagrams with hands and/or feet, but I know of no skilled Chen practitioner who does.

With due respect, if you don't agree that what skilled Chen stylists do is the same thing depicted in that diagram, you don't understand either the diagram, what skilled Chen practitioners do, or both. It is very clear once you understand the diagram and have practiced Chen silk reeling. It isn't that complicated.

Your starting premise, as you've stated it, is that "modern" Chen style is something different than what was previously practiced. Sure, there are modern competition forms, many un-skilled practitioners, variations between one practitioner and another, different sub-styles, etc. but, there are skilled, knowledgable current-day practitioners. However, I'm not aware of evidence to suggest that the core of their practice is substantially different from, for example, the practical aspects of what Chen Xin wrote.

I'm more than happy to hear evidence to the contrary and evaluate it. So far, I'm not aware of anything concrete that you've suggested, just empty assertions based upon IYHO. I don't have a problem if you don't like Chen style Taijiquan - or 90% of all of the Taijiquan out there. However, if you are going to assert something specific beyond an opinion, it'll need to have some substance.

[charles]

These are the Hetu and Luoshu. Luoshu is the diagram of the Luo document.
I have no idea where the diagram above in the book comes from:

Those are in the book as part of the prior description of Luo River Writings.

I don't know where the diagram in the book, upon which the exercises is based, comes from either.

[Bao]

With due respect, if you don't agree that what skilled Chen stylists do is the same thing depicted in that diagram, you don't understand either the diagram, what skilled Chen practitioners do, or both. It is very clear once you understand the diagram and have practiced Chen silk reeling. It isn't that complicated.

I understand the diagram and I know basic silk-reeling circles. Those basic silk-reeling circles practiced today is just not what Chen Xin wrote about or tried to explain. This is my opinion.

I'm not aware of evidence to suggest that the core of their practice is substantially different from, for example, the practical aspects of what Chen Xin wrote.

All of the modern large frame formats, including Chan Fake's, were created to simplify the forms, get rid of details in order to teach large groups and mostly as a health exercise. Many who claims to have studied with YCF, WJQ and CFK and later taught themselves were never close students. They only learned the simplified versions and now these simplified variants are taught as standard. None of these statements need any proofs. Read, learn and do your homework.

The core might still be there somewhere in the core of the arts and the same as ever. I believe that "the core" is the same for all TJQ, but I don't see it in most of modern TJQ. Regardless style.

I'm more than happy to hear evidence to the contrary and evaluate it. So far, I'm not aware of anything concrete that you've suggested, just empty assertions based upon IYHO.

I don't have evidence of anything. I present my ideas from my own experience, not opinions only. If people believe that there's something to those ideas or not, I don't care much about. If someone thinks it's interesting, fine with me. I am not writing to make anyone believe anything. I am just honest about what I believe and I do my best to explain my reasons to go against what most other people believe. To make my point clear sitting behind a computer screen writing is not enough. If you are not interested in anything, fine with me. You don't need to reply or write anything in response.

[charles]

All of the modern large frame formats, including Chan Fake's, were created to simplify the forms, get rid of details in order to teach large groups and mostly as a health exercise.

SOME modern large frame formats were created for the purpose you state. I know of no evidence that suggests that CFK simplified the forms or taught large groups, or mostly as a health exercise. Is there ANY substantiating evidence that you can point to that supports that assertion regarding CFK?

Many who claims to have studied with YCF, WJQ and CFK and later taught themselves were never close students. They only learned the simplified versions and now these simplified variants are taught as standard. None of these statements need any proofs. Read, learn and do your homework.

Sure, there are lots of examples of students who studied superficially with well-known teachers then made stuff up to fill in the gaps of what they didn't get. However, there are also examples - fewer in number, as one would expect - of students who developed significant skill and understanding.

...I don't see it in most of modern TJQ. Regardless style.

I don't either, but that doesn't prove - or even substantiate - an opinion that NO ONE got it/has it.

I don't have evidence of anything. I present my ideas from my own experience, not opinions only. If people believe that there's something to those ideas or not, I don't care much about. If someone thinks it's interesting, fine with me. I am not writing to make anyone believe anything. I am just honest about what I believe and I do my best to explain my reasons to go against what most other people believe. To make my point clear sitting behind a computer screen writing is not enough. If you are not interested in anything, fine with me. You don't need to reply or write anything in response.

Well, I don't have any evidence of it, but from my experience, because she was a real bad ass, my great grandmother created Taijiquan. I'm pretty sure that CFK and YLC and others learned what they knew from her. Sure, that is contrary to what most people believe, but that's been my experience and is my opinion. I don't care if other people don't believe that.

My point is that people can make whatever wild claims they want and can believe whatever outrages, unsubstantiated, unsupported things they want to. (That happens everyday in all sorts of circumstances.) They also have, for the most part, the right to express those. (That also happens everyday in all sorts of circumstances.) However, if the claims strain credibility - as mine, above, do, or should - those making the claims shouldn't be too surprised that they are met with dismissal or just outright ignored.

[greytowhite]

The River diagrams and such - it's the Magic Square of Saturn... The magic squares literally describe the orbital paths of the planets around the sun. We're getting into bagua palm theory now. If you go through the post-heaven trigrams in the Magic Square sequence you can stabilize your heart fire and gain connection to the Solar Lion/Godhead/Wufang Shangdi/Heaven. This will help you stabilize your 5 Elements and finally ensure smooth passage between upper and lower dantians and form the middle. In the pre-heaven sequence you've started to decode a wider pattern and are now connecting to the powers of Mercury. Mercury has a far more complex rosette orbital pattern that is also a much faster orbit than Saturn. You can use the yang energy to restore aspects of the body now much more easily. So the Taiji Diagram starts to dissolve into Wuji and the yin and yang "sink" into the empty center. Aspects of the same center that is completely empty is between the legs under the perineum. As the space in the middle grows eventually one moves from the entirety of the field as well as the central channel instead of various other centers.

https://www.yijing.co.uk/downloads/Handout1.pdf

Here he describes the process of building the root chakra to contain the jing and cook it into qi. The 5 Elements are in the feet and intimately linked to what I think of as open/close - you can then move on to the 2nd chakra which is a sphere - you should have already been working with this shape a lot and it's pretty easy once you know how to drill in your legs and isolate waist vs hips. The sphere can be thought of as on top of but I feel it's more of a layer that's sunken inside the 1st chakra. As you're able to move from the solar plexus and floating ribs ala Xingyi Academy or Kenny Gong Xingyi mechanics then as the fire drops and merges with the water the more complex shapes of 4th chakra and above can be formed. How would you describe a tetrahedron? Some weird shape combination of a cube, with juts like a cone, and it rolls like a ball. The 3 above the heart are typically built in process of receiving energetic transmissions and various gifts from lineage guides. The throat chakra is like a tetrahedron with its legs cut off or a dodecahedron.

[robert]

The text that references is as follows:

...

A Taiji student trying to master the silk-reeling method of energy regeneration should practice the following exercise:

Place both hands in a hold-ball position: the right hand below with palm up and the left hand above the right, palm down;

At the starting position one (see lower right diagram), move the 'ball' up to two, then three and six. Meanwhile, the movement of the head leads both legs from position nine to eight, then seven to four and six, going through five in the center;

...

For people who recognize the nine palace stepping I thought I would point out that Chen Xiaoxing's/Chen Ziqiang's school has a raised stepping platform, although I've never seen anyone use it while I was there. It's seen in the foreground of the photo.

[robert]

Long time since I read the book. The named confused me a bit. These are the Hetu and Luoshu. Luoshu is the diagram of the Luo document.
I have no idea where the diagram above in the book comes from:

The Hetu and Luoshu are suppose to be related to the confluence of the Yellow and Luo rivers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River_Map

The confluence isn't far from Chenjiagou.

[Subitai]

. . .
The Hetu and Luoshu are suppose to be related to the confluence of the Yellow and Luo rivers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River_Map

The confluence isn't far from Chenjiagou.

. . .

Nice picture...I'm sure they used their DRONES a few hundred years ago to get that aerial shot.

[robert]

Nice picture...I'm sure they used their DRONES a few hundred years ago to get that aerial shot.

Drones? Martial arts masters don't need no stinking drones!

[Trick]

It looks to me that a couple of lines as missing from the 'back' drawing. Anyone else notice that?

That’s what I’ve been trying to point out. .....Perhaps Chen Xi’s writings are better than his drawings.

[Trick]

Leonardo da Vinci was pointed out in the thread........Anyhow “the golden ratio” fit into Taijiquan .....silly question, of course it fit in, TJQ exercise is very much about the golden ration.

[Bao]

@Robert:

Thanks for the input!


@Charles:

"those making the claims shouldn't be too surprised that they are met with dismissal or just outright ignored."

I would not and I am not. Actually I am very surprised that I don't get attacked harder and more often.

"Is there ANY substantiating evidence that you can point to that supports that assertion regarding CFK? "

YFC left Beijing for Shanghai, CFK took over and started teaching there. Same big crowd, same expectations.