Baji Practice & Training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Baji Practice & Training

Postby Bob on Tue May 26, 2020 9:51 am

Is this typical training for most baji schools?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aK6clo7ens

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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby Leimeng on Tue May 26, 2020 10:14 pm

Honestly, it looks like basics found in almost every CMA school I have ever been in, from Shaolin and various derivatives to Hsing I and Pa Kua Chang. They are all good exercises that, when drilled properly and over time with a variety of partners, can produce a lot of good skills.

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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby yeniseri on Fri May 29, 2020 12:49 pm

Perhaps it is my old age. but the predetermined "pata cake" as in what is called training exercise have always been a waste of time, Again, for me, only!
I have never found them useful but I can see where they train type and depth of movements for those who have rpoblems seeing how they work and for this, it is the best exercises around.

My preference has always been for shuaijiao type jibengong because it matches actual encounters (grabbing, pushing, pulling, etc) meaning you are training as you see the reality of it and how you adapt because that is the true test.
Baji training has always been top notch as I have been told when talking wiht practitioners) so it is still valid through function and utility.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby johnwang on Fri May 29, 2020 2:33 pm

It's interested to compare the Baji method (similar to Taiji method) with SC method. The difference are the

- back leg control,
- Shen Fa usage (body rotation), and
- body momentum usage (step in back leg).

I think SC method is much "softer" and more relax.

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Last edited by johnwang on Fri May 29, 2020 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby johnwang on Fri May 29, 2020 2:59 pm

yeniseri wrote:My preference has always been for shuaijiao type jibengong because it matches actual encounters (grabbing, pushing, pulling, etc) meaning you are training as you see the reality of it and how you adapt because that is the true test.
Baji training has always been top notch as I have been told when talking wiht practitioners) so it is still valid through function and utility.

I have tried to compare the Baji power generation and the SC power generation. One thing that I like in SC power generation that doesn't exist in the Baji power generation is

1. Twist your opponent in one direction (such as clockwise), when he resists,
2. Borrow his resistance force, and twist him into the opposite direction (such as counter clockwise).

When I do 2, I can feel twice amount of power generation that I don't feel in any of the Baji power generation.

Here is an example. In the old time a teacher will require his students to repeat this solo drill 250 time non-stop.

Image
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby Trick on Fri May 29, 2020 11:26 pm

johnwang wrote:Here is an example. In the old time a teacher will require his students to repeat this solo drill 250 time non-stop.

Image

Why not in modern times, is the exercise outdated?......It looks as a good exercise
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby johnwang on Fri May 29, 2020 11:44 pm

Trick wrote:Why not in modern times, is the exercise outdated?......It looks as a good exercise

It's good exercise. It's very good for the whole body.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby Overlord on Sat May 30, 2020 3:47 am

Bob wrote:Is this typical training for most baji schools?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aK6clo7ens



From what I know, it is similar. But many subtle things are the important that is intentionally left out.
From instance, 三靠臂 shouldn’t be done with pure smashing force~
Some of move like 鷂子穿林 is definitely a move from Pigua with less steps between transitions

As for similarities with SC, it’s said Baji was original based on Chinese wrestling ~
I think some school still got 八極跤
Later however it’s was more influenced by spear thus becoming more striking ~
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby Giles on Sat May 30, 2020 7:33 am

johnwang wrote:I think SC method is much "softer" and more relax.

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I think the people doing the SC techniques in the clips you have selected here are much softer and more 'relax' than the person doing the Taijiquan technique. And I'd agree that quite a few vids showing Taijiquan technique demos are, indeed, too stiff. But in my opinion, that's bad Taijiquan, not because Taijiquan is or should be like that.
Without presuming anything like the level of skill in the clip that shows your teacher, that's more like the kind of 'softness' that I think much 'good' Taijiquan uses. It's what I aim for and try to teach, anyway.

--Oops, on closer examination I understand that the guy in the white suit is doing a Baji application, not Taijiquan. My bad.
Although I have seen other Taiji-clips with a similar energy...
Last edited by Giles on Sat May 30, 2020 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby klue on Sat May 30, 2020 2:38 pm

Interesting videos.

In the first clip, the guy, who applies Kao, does not use his lower body. He doesn’t make contact with the opponents legs and is just using his torso. I think, this was staged. He wouldn‘t resist against someone with enough forward momentum.

In the third clip, he traps the back foot of the opponent by stepping in with a slight circular step with is right foot before applying Kao. If his timing is not good, the other guy will be crushing in first.

In the second clip, he steps in straight and breaks the balance at first leg contact. Kao is just the finishing move

Three different levels of “whole-body-power”.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby aamc on Sun May 31, 2020 10:28 am

IMHO, the difference between the SJ and BaiJi methods, is one of live training. The SJ methods, show you how to enter and chase your opponent if they move, it speaks of having to apply this against an active training partner. This BaiJi demo misses this nuance, its just an application against a static target.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby .Q. on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:02 am

Probably the biggest difference is caused by the slightly different conditions and goals. Throwing for Baji happens when opportunity presents itself. It's not something they seek as their main goal is to hit hard. If you spend time trying to go deep in for a real throw you're going to take a bit more time and risk a counter strike. It's easier to think about this if opponent has a small knife. You wouldn't risk a deep entry unless you're absolutely sure you'll finish it with that one opening.
In shuaijiao you typically aren't risking death from one failed entry so you have slightly more time to setup for a full on throw. You want to finish with one throw and your opponent is too. This is when playing sport of course. Combat version would be slightly different and I suspect the approach would actually become closer to Baji.
Last edited by .Q. on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:15 pm

.Q. wrote: Combat version would be slightly different and I suspect the approach would actually become closer to Baji.

Since it will be unlikely that your Baji shoulder strike can kill your opponent, what's the purpose for you to use Baji shoulder strike to push your opponent back (since it will be hard to reach him after that)?

If you use SC body squeeze, your opponent will fall down next to your feet, you can then kick his head, drop your knee on his chest, ... and end the fight.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby .Q. on Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:19 am

johnwang wrote:
.Q. wrote: Combat version would be slightly different and I suspect the approach would actually become closer to Baji.

Since it will be unlikely that your Baji shoulder strike can kill your opponent, what's the purpose for you to use Baji shoulder strike to push your opponent back (since it will be hard to reach him after that)?

If you use SC body squeeze, your opponent will fall down next to your feet, you can then kick his head, drop your knee on his chest, ... and end the fight.

Connor McGreggor kicked someone's ass w/ the shoulder strike. I wouldn't rule shoulder out as a legit strike.
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Re: Baji Practice & Training

Postby dspyrido on Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:26 pm

Cmas that want to wrestle do SC on top of striking.

This is not to replace it but to augment it with striking & get Ti, da, na, shuai.

The impact training basics (two person or tree hitting) have many uses but the most basic is to stop someone getting smacked and freezing up like a deer in the headlights. If training is only soft and slow or even throwing based - a good fist in the face really messes up the brain.

As for shoulder strikes aside from the connor example its not legal in wrestling to shoulder charge to set up a throw. But the shoulder is also very useful in chinna. If an extended arm or leg does present itself then the shoulder (& torso) it can be used to do nasty things.

Baji had some nice sequences that flow in range as a continuous attack: kick -> punch -> elbow -> shoulder then once in range it's chinna+SC.
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