the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

When you step forward and punch, do you like to coordinate your punch with your back foot landing, or with your leading foot landing?

What's the difference in your opinion? Please share your thoughts.

johnwang wrote:
When you step forward and punch, do you like to coordinate your punch with your back foot landing, or with your leading foot landing?

Assuming Orthodox boxing position, if i'm stepping forward with my left foot: Depends on Left hand or right hand.

The only time i'll coordinate my left foot to drop with my left hand (at the same time), is if i'm trying to do a quick jabb. Otherwise I don't, instead I use what we call front wheel drive.

Left foot steals forward and then the power is driven up the front (left leg) through the hips which will also rotate the powered waist at the same time as the left punch. It's not as fast as a Jabb but it's more powerful. The lack of speed is made up by proper set ups and superior timing.

In the same stance and again assuming stepping forward with my left foot and I also wanted to use a right cross. Then yes, i'll coordinate my left foot to drop in at the same time my right cross is landing.

In the same stance, the only time i'd coordinate with the back foot landing, is if I were doing a punch more like Xing Yi style.

Do you guys think the following basic training make sense?

Start with both feet touching together. I'm trying to simplify the leading hand punch (jab) and back hand punch (cross) as the following:

1. Jab coordinate with back foot:

- Step in right foot.
- Slide in left foot and punch right hand at the same time.

2. Jab coordinate with front foot:

- Step in right foot and punch right hand at the same time.
- Slide in left foot.

3.. Cross coordinate with back foot:

- Step in left foot.
- Slide in right foot and punch right hand at the same time.

4. Cross coordinate with front foot:

- Step in left foot and punch right hand at the same time.
- Slide in right foot.

Coordinate finger-toe
Push from (or think down in the) rear heal. Tap down the big toe of the front foot.

Only heard about William Chen teaching this fist/finger-toe coordination openly, but it's a traditional method. Probably first written down by Chen Xin in his Chen Taiji Small Frame classic.

Don't really know why or how, but it works pretty good.

Taiji seems like to coordinate strike with the back foot landing (at 4.00 - 4.30). I can't find any Taiji move that coordinate strike with leading foot landing.

Do you think some MA systems only train one way but not both? Why?

Can you find any easier way to train cross (back hand horizontal reverse punch) than this?

johnwang wrote:Taiji seems like to coordinate strike with the back foot landing (at 4.00 - 4.30). I can't find any Taiji move that coordinate strike with leading foot landing.

Why?

Because...Stepping out with the lead foot and also DELIVERING the power of a punch at the same time is equal to falling. (even it it's only for a split second. Most of us in Taiji are taught that falling during the set is a big NO NO. When I say falling I mean for a moment where you're not in control.

(Side notes)
Falling or not falling. I teach this to my students all the time. The very act of walking is "falling forward and catching yourself". All of us humans do it daily without even realizing it. However, like in most internal styles...if you lower you level 1st and place your foot out in front of you (making sure it's safe footing), THEN transfer your weight. Then it is NOT Falling. Bagua mud stepping is like this. Groucho Marx used to also walk like a bagua guy with a cigar in hand. Pretty funny.

In Yang Style "Step parry and punch"...left foot steps forward 1st, (makes sure it is stable footing) then the weight and power transfer happens second. Hence, NEVER a feeling of falling and always in control.

This is a personal difference for me as I also do Sun Taiji and it uses the follow step (instead of traditional bow and arrow type forward stance) It's a trade off IMO, I would say the potential for the footwork and speed is obviously faster in Sun...but there is a feeling (when you step forward) of Falling and catching yourself...just prior to the follow step (from the rear)

Also John...since you showed a video of Master Adam Hsu (looked a bit younger)

I remember just recently there was a video put out with him doing some Chen style type applications...gotta look for it.

NOT A PUNCH...but the lead arm does attack with the lead leg

Oh yeah...here at https://youtu.be/_1At80-mluU?t=263

Subitai wrote: Most of us in Taiji are taught that falling during the set is a big NO NO.

May be this is why Taiji doesn't coordinate punch with leading foot landing.

This is the major difference between SC and Taiji. SC is will to give before to take. Taiji is not willing to.

The major SC foundation is built on "falling".

- You move your body center outside of your base.
- You let the gravity to pull you and your opponent.
- You then regain your balance.

Without falling, there will be no throw.

Here are examples:

johnwang wrote:When you step forward and punch, do you like to coordinate your punch with your back foot landing, or with your leading foot landing?

What's the difference in your opinion? Please share your thoughts.

Neither. To generate the most power, both feet should be "landed" before punch is finished (e.g., whole body synergistic rotation, elastic energy, etc).

Step jabs, superman punch, etc. are used with a falling step for reasons other than delivering the most force.

johnwang wrote:Can you find any easier way to train cross (back hand horizontal reverse punch) than this?

https://i.postimg.cc/HLwJ26J8/Adam-Baji-Fajin-2.gif

That is a training clip. Can you post a Baji sparring/fighting video where practitioners are doing that? In the clip, Baji guy is telegraphing and vulnerable when both feet are together foot off the ground with both hands winding up exposing his face. That can be timed/created by a fighter with a counter punch, kick, sweep, etc.

Why do you think it is better to lift the foot off the ground?
Why do you think NFl football and MLB baseball players release/issue the ball after their leading foot is already on the ground?

"What's the difference in your opinion? Please share your thoughts."

marvin8 wrote:"What's the difference in your opinion? Please share your thoughts."

It's trade off.

1. Conservative (beginner level) approach - coordinate punch with back foot landing.

PRO: After you have landed your leading foot, you still have option whether you want to finish your punch or not.
CON: Your front foot landing has already telegraphy your intention.

2. Aggressive (advance level) approach - coordinate punch with front foot landing.

PRO: You don't telegraph your intention.
CON: You may over commit if you miss your punch.

3. land both feet and then punch (your method) - The most conservative approach.

In Chen family style stepping is explored more in laojia erlu (cannon fist). The strike around 2:57 occurs with the leading foot landing and is one example of shaking out the jin. There is an elbow strike around 3:01 that occurs with the leading foot landing.

The same question can be asked:

When you step in. do you step in your leading foot, or do you step in your back foot.

If you step in your

1. leading foot

PRO: You don't telegraph yourself.
CON: Your opponent can sweep your leg at that moment (risky).

2. back foot:

PRO: Your opponent cannot sweep your leg at that moment (safer).
CON: You have telegraphed your intention.

johnwang wrote:

marvin8 wrote:"What's the difference in your opinion? Please share your thoughts."

It's trade off.

1. Conservative (beginner level) approach - coordinate punch with back foot landing.

PRO: After you have landed your leading foot, you still have option whether you want to finish your punch or not.
CON: Your front foot landing has already telegraphy your intention.

2. Aggressive (advance level) approach - coordinate punch with front foot landing.

PRO: You don't telegraph your intention.
CON: You may over commit if you miss your punch.

It's not a "trade off." Both 1 and 2 telegraphs the moment one lifts their foot, not when the punch finishes. Sliding is a better word to describe Baji guy's rear foot, not landing.

Number 2 is not advanced. It telegraphs the same as number 1, when the foot starts to leave the ground. The CON here is Baji guy does not bring his rear foot with him driving force into the opponent. The lifting of the foot or jumping directs some vertical force into the ground, rather than into the opponent. Also, this leaves him with a wider stance and in a position to be countered. One should have their feet underneath them for balance, changeability, movement, etc. Therefore, the CON is it is a weaker punch and it leaves him exposed for a longer period while still telegraphing the moment the foot starts stepping.

After the punch, one should "close the door" by either jabbing or hooking transferring their weight back to the rear foot or move off line to avoid counters which requires the rear foot to be underneath them.

johnwang wrote:3. land both feet and then punch (your method) - The most conservative approach.

The method is not to coordinate with the back foot. The method is weight is transferred to the front foot, rear foot slides to provide force into the opponent, balance and ability to change into another offense or defensive move.

This guy coordinates his punch with front and back foot causing him to be double weighted:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GI6Epznm_s

"Please share your thoughts."

marvin8 wrote:Sliding is a better word ...


"Please share your thoughts."

For beginners, the leading foot hard landing and back foot raising can help them to coordinate their foot with their striking hand better. I will even ask them to have 1 second delay in between (move in leading foot, post for 1 second, then move in back foot).

In application, both feet are sliding.

- Your clip does not cover any distance (static punch).
- When you step in and your back leg follow, you cover distance (dynamic punch).