Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby Giles on Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:20 am

For me personally, the best would be to have your front foot arriving and ‘rooting’ just a fraction of a second before the strike arrives. At the moment of the strike, the whole body weight is falling into the front foot. (Although if you’re giving space to an attacker’s force as you strike, it could sometimes also be falling into the back foot.)

If possible, at the moment of the strike (or other technique) the front foot should then be invading the opponent’s space, to some extent moving under or at least close to his center. You get that close by what you did in the second or two before, evading or neutralizing or ‘peng-ing’ or pre-empting an attack. Obviously, that won’t always work out in practice, but the original question is more about ‘what do you aim for?’.

“Rooting” here doesn’t mean making yourself immobile in order to do a technique. If your stepping techniques are fairly good, among other things meaning that you are NOT double weighted at any point during stepping, then you’ll be able to flow in and out of steps all the better. So the option of “both feet on the ground”, described as “conservative”, can mean quite different things. This doesn’t necessarily mean taking a step, then standing your ground like a tree and punching from there.

I think I'm on a similar wavelength to what Subitai wrote, but not sure...
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:11 am

When people say flat footed it seems to have two different meanings, on one hand its a negative attribute: lack of mobility and footwork, slow plodding, no spring in their step, lazy etc but than other times people say he's coming out flat footed! which means he intends to slug/fight rather than dance/move.


And some fighters (Foreman) are completely flat-footed, and have the soles of their feet planted while both moving and punching.

Planting your feet is a term used to describe slugging it out and standing your ground with your opponent, as it allows for a sturdier base and less mobility (theoretically it's easier to wind up shots aswell) as a rule fighters who punch genrally don't pivot while they throw, it's something common with 'huge hitters'


https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/f ... ce.422609/

Instead of “rooting “ “planting the feet” means the same thing or does it?
Regarding stepping and foot work one can look at boxing, the rationale behind how they step and move.

In comparison to CMA, in general the movement is different developed in a different time.
One might question which is more effective and why, indirectly the subject of this thread.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Writing your name on water. The greatest thing is to be ordinary."
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:47 am

windwalker wrote:Regarding stepping and foot work one can look at boxing, the rationale behind how they step and move.

In comparison to CMA, in general the movement is different developed in a different time.
One might question which is more effective and why, indirectly the subject of this thread.

Boxing is not

- built from the 6 harmony principle.
- using the whole body as a striking tool.
- ...

In this thread discussion, we are

- not talking about your opponent steps in, you punch him while you have both feet on the ground.
- talking about your opponent is standing still, you step in from a far distance and attack him.

IMO, the coordinate punch with foot landing (either front foot, or back foot) is the body coordination 101. Without it, there will be no 6 harmony:

- hand coordinate with foot,
- elbow coordinate with knee,
- shoulder coordinate with hip,
- ...

Unless we want to throw away the basic CMA building block "6 harmony", the hand and foot coordination is a must. There should be no feet stop moving but hand is still moving.

In SC training, I like to use this drill to force students to understand the "hand and foot coordination":

- Step in back foot with leading hand parry (in striking art, parry can be considered as strike).
- Step in front foot with body strike.

Image
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:11 pm

Can we make a simple statement as, "If there is no hand and foot coordination (or 6 harmony), there will be no CMA."

Of course when you sit on a chair, you may only move your hand without moving your foot. But that's a special case and not general case.

Your thought?
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby Giles on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:17 pm

In the GIF just shown - almost but not quite 'kao'/shoulder stroke, if I see rightly - then what I like, personally, is how deep the attacker's front foot goes into/under the other guy's center.

However, when I look at what happens to the other guy's body, how and how much he is moved, I see the attacker's body moving horizontally forwards at the moment of impact and the other guy's body being moved up and away. Although not actually that much, I think, in comparison to the space and momentum the attacker uses to generate the technique. Kao is a technique I've been training quite a lot in the last couple of years and in my experience, it's both more economic with one's own strength and at the same time has a greater effect if you place your front foot in a similar position but a split second before impact, and then let your own body (as attacker) fall more vertically into your front foot. You feel like you are doing less, it's more of a 'just let yourself drop into the front foot, and add a little fajin into your shoulder or elbow on impact'. You don't feel like you are throwing or pushing your own body mass horizontally through the other guy. But the effect is noticeably stronger: it tends to collapse the other guy's structure, meaning that he doesn't go up as a result of the strike (like in this GIF), but instead the impact tends to send his body down. In the process, the other guy is moved much further back - if you're doing the friendly version - or the impact goes deeper into his body and is much more unpleasant - if you're doing the less friendly version (and possibly he has some kind of training protectives).

To my mind, "hand and foot coordination" (part of 6 Harmony) doesn't have to mean that hand and foot are doing something at exactly the same moment in time. It means that they should be connected - related to each other through the body connections and acting in harmony with each other.
Like the other classical tai chi instruction: "If one part of the body moves, all the body moves". That doesn't however mean that all parts of the body are moving through 'external space' at exactly the same moment or to the same degree. Here too it's about connectedness and relationship. If you crack a whip, then all parts of the whip are connected and 'in harmony' with each other, but they are not moving at exactly the same time and/or to the same degree.
(Of course, the connectedness in the body doesn't have to be a classical wave connection like in a whip, there are other routes).
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 802
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:38 pm

johnwang wrote:Boxing is not

- built from the 6 harmony principle.
- using the whole body as a striking tool.
- ...




I guess we will disagree on this.
not being built form something does not mean it does not use it.
Boxing can be very technical depending on level.

As far as "whole" body....wouldn't want to get hit by say "Tyson" thinking its not his whole body being used
in striking.

It is true that in "boxing" one is limited to just using the end of the glove as the "striking" surface

On many threads you've asked for clips showing what is being talked about in use and yet on this thread clips posted are
of isolated movements practiced solo...

Might be better to show it in action....using CMA movement.....
"Writing your name on water. The greatest thing is to be ordinary."
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:47 pm

"Writing your name on water. The greatest thing is to be ordinary."
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:54 pm

windwalker wrote:Might be better to show it in action....using CMA movement.....

Unfortunately the CMA fighting in the ring clip is almost impossible to find.

In this partner drill clip, you can see that

- Left foot side step coordinate with right hand arm pull.
- Right foot forward step coordinate with left hand leg pull and right hand neck push.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby dspyrido on Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:14 pm

Beginner - practise punching the arm with a planted body. Improve by learning to use the hips, shoulders and legs piston.

Medium - practise harmonies to learn to punch with the legs so as to teach whole body power. Evolve by learning different stepping lengths and then change the coordination (reverse it).

Advanced - drop stepping to fast leg pistons, "wrapping" where hips stay forward and torso twists, bows open close short range etc. Stepping is not an obvious move and the punch can be done stepping in the opposite direction. Eg step back while punching forward but with power or left while punching right.


Each is more advanced and requires to build on previous coordination learnt but in the end how it gets applied doesn't matter as long as it's got power, placement and timing. At the advanced level punches should be able to come from unexpected angles, little to no tells, pullback or setup & yet still hurt.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2321
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:28 am

I try to use just 1 simple concept to explain power generation. IMO, to coordinate hand with foot is the easiest way. After that, I can then add detail such as:

- back leg bending,
- weight shifting.
- hip rotation,
- body twisting.
- ...

I may exaggerate the foot stepping so the stomping sound can match with the hand striking (for training purpose). In fighting, both feet should be just "sliding".

The training can be as simple as:

- Step in leading foot.
- Step in back foot and punch at the same time.

In the following clip, the hand striking is coordinate with the leading foot landing.

Image
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby pacman161 on Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:54 pm

johnwang wrote:Can you find any easier way to train cross (back hand horizontal reverse punch) than this?

Image



That punch isn't good. His body is disconnected from the punch for the most part, and there is a second where he isn't even touching the ground.
pacman161
Santi
 
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:06 am

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby Trick on Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:01 am

johnwang wrote: I can't find any Taiji move that coordinate strike with leading foot landing.



TJQ is not about chasing an opponent so no long distance attacking found in the form or partner exercises, However “falling” is subtly understood by its controlled stepping(one do not need to play “stumbling “exercises)
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby Trick on Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:17 am

In traditional karate free sparring/competition, attack from long distance happen all the time, striking from long distance to be able to nail one can not first land the front foot even for a fraction of an second...it will be too slow and telegraphed that way(mostly). But as pointed out by previous poster striking on the launch forward one are weak to be caught by an leg/foot sweep.

Now the traditional karate competition are not to be contact to the face/head of the opponent, but it happen all the time with “surprisingly” many knock downs, which shows the effectiveness of the launch forward falling step.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:58 pm

Is 6 harmony important for all CMA systems?

You either

1. coordinate your strike with your foot, or
2. you don't.

If you prefer 2, please share your opinion.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:41 pm

Trick wrote:TJQ is not about chasing an opponent so no long distance attacking found in the form or partner exercises,

A: Dear master! If I want to chase my opponent from a long distance, what should I do?
B: Our system doesn't chase opponent from a long distance.
A: But if I want to do it, what should I ... ?
B: ...

Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9505
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests