Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby Trick on Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:29 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:TJQ is not about chasing an opponent so no long distance attacking found in the form or partner exercises,

A: Dear master! If I want to chase my opponent from a long distance, what should I do?
B: Our system doesn't chase opponent from a long distance.
A: But if I want to do it, what should I ... ?
B: ...

[

B(dear master) : do more wrestling
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby LaoDan on Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:49 am

johnwang wrote:I can't find any Taiji move that coordinate strike with leading foot landing.

John,

Chen style Taijiquan developed a fajin form for competitions which Zhu Tiencai shows here (demo starting at ~2’ – with pauses between moves):



Is what you were looking for included in this form?
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:03 am

LaoDan wrote:
johnwang wrote:I can't find any Taiji move that coordinate strike with leading foot landing.

John,

Chen style Taijiquan developed a fajin form for competitions which Zhu Tiencai shows here (demo starting at ~2’ – with pauses between moves):



Is what you were looking for included in this form?

Thanks for showing this clip. Sometime when I said Taiji, I mean Yang Taiji and forget about Chen Taiji. IMO, the Chen Taiji is very similar to Baji.
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:10 am

pacman161 wrote:
johnwang wrote:Can you find any easier way to train cross (back hand horizontal reverse punch) than this?

Image



That punch isn't good. His body is disconnected from the punch for the most part, and there is a second where he isn't even touching the ground.

After you have generated power from your back leg by borrowing the counter force from the ground, you no longer need your back foot to connect to the ground any more, your body momentum will take over.

In the following clip, he coordinates punch with his leading foot landing. After he has generated power from his back leg, his back foot is off the ground (back foot ground connection no longer needed).

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby LaoDan on Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:51 am

johnwang wrote:
LaoDan wrote:
johnwang wrote:I can't find any Taiji move that coordinate strike with leading foot landing.

John,

Chen style Taijiquan developed a fajin form for competitions which Zhu Tiencai shows here (demo starting at ~2’ – with pauses between moves):



Is what you were looking for included in this form?

Thanks for showing this clip. Sometime when I said Taiji, I mean Yang Taiji and forget about Chen Taiji. IMO, the Chen Taiji is very similar to Baji.

John,

You may be correct about Yang style weaponless solo form training (although there are so many variants that I cannot be certain that none of them have it), but I have been taught some Yang style weapons forms where the stepping and strike are coordinated as you describe (e.g. staff as passed down by BP Chan, primarily using the back weighted follow step or stepping into horse stance to coordinate with the strike; and saber/dao which uses both front and rear foot coordination with the strike in various moves; and closing step [feet together] with spear, etc.). Also, the version of the choreographed weaponless partner sanshou form (the 88) that I learned also contains, in a few places, some of the coordination between step and strike that you mention. I would say therefore that the broad statement that it is not found in Yang style is probably incorrect. Sorry that I do not have videos of the weapons forms to show you. Perhaps someone else can find examples to show.
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:06 pm

LaoDan wrote:Sorry that I do not have videos of the weapons forms to show you. Perhaps someone else can find examples to show.

I don't believe weapon technique can be used to defined a style. CMA all learn weapon from other styles. Even the Wing Chun uses narrow inward horse stance in open hand, when they use staff, they use just the same side way stance as any other CMA systems.

In other words, the WC staff principle contradict to WC open hand principle. I'll not be surprised to see that Yang Taiji weapon principle may contradict to Yang Taiji open hand principle too.

Image
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:30 pm

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote:Regarding stepping and foot work one can look at boxing, the rationale behind how they step and move.

In comparison to CMA, in general the movement is different developed in a different time.
One might question which is more effective and why, indirectly the subject of this thread.

Boxing is not

- built from the 6 harmony principle.
- using the whole body as a striking tool.
- ...

Yes boxing is: shoulder over hip, elbow over knee, hand over foot. Sequential whole body movement, seen in other CMAs.

johnwang wrote:IMO, the coordinate punch with foot landing (either front foot, or back foot) is the body coordination 101. Without it, there will be no 6 harmony:

- hand coordinate with foot,
- elbow coordinate with knee,
- shoulder coordinate with hip,
- ...

Unless we want to throw away the basic CMA building block "6 harmony", the hand and foot coordination is a must. There should be no feet stop moving but hand is still moving.

"Rhino guard" does not follow six harmonies. Did you "throw away" rhino guard? If not, why not?

johnwang wrote:
windwalker wrote:Might be better to show it in action....using CMA movement.....
Unfortunately the CMA fighting in the ring clip is almost impossible to find.

I agree with windwalker, it's "better to show it in action." Rather than a form or drill where opponent stands frozen.

Not impossible. There are several CMA fighting videos. Here is a baji fighting video. They do not land the foot and hand at the same exact time. I don't know the reason: not practical, telegraphing, weaker, you may be misinterpreting 6 harmonies, it's not absolute, etc.?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT8HJ1-CrFI

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:TJQ is not about chasing an opponent so no long distance attacking found in the form or partner exercises,

A: Dear master! If I want to chase my opponent from a long distance, what should I do?
B: Our system doesn't chase opponent from a long distance.
A: But if I want to do it, what should I ... ?
B: ...

A: Dear master! If I want to chase my opponent from a long distance, what should I do?
B: We don't assault people by chasing them from a long distance. That's bad wude.
A: But if I want to do it, what should I ... ?
B: Don't you might be arrested, sued, etc.

johnwang wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWi2TF13dCw

Hand does not arrive at the same time as foot in your video above.

Image

What is your goal in punching like this? If your goal is to enter the clinch from a distance, this appears to be counter productive for all the CONs previously listed. Plus, stepping should be fluid to bridge the gap and reach should not be shortened.

johnwang wrote:In the following clip, he coordinates punch with his leading foot landing.
Image

No he doesn't. His leading foot lands first then left hand, not at the same time.

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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby LaoDan on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:34 pm

johnwang wrote:
LaoDan wrote:Sorry that I do not have videos of the weapons forms to show you. Perhaps someone else can find examples to show.

I don't believe weapon technique can be used to defined a style. CMA all learn weapon from other styles. Even the Wing Chun uses narrow inward horse stance in open hand, when they use staff, they use just the same side way stance as any other CMA systems.

In other words, the WC staff principle contradict to WC open hand principle. I'll not be surprised to see that Yang Taiji weapon principle may contradict to Yang Taiji open hand principle too.

Image

I consider the weapon forms as utilizing/emphasizing different aspects of the principles rather than contradicting open hand principles. But even if we accept your viewpoint, then there are still some Yang style fast sets as well as the choreographed sanshou form (when done faster) that do exhibit the principle of the foot landing with the strike. I do not practice any Yang style fast sets, but the following video does show some techniques that use this principle (especially with the rear foot follow step):



Perhaps the principle became deemphasized when the Yang style form emphasis began to focus on slow and even performance (for health?). Since the fast set, the sanshou (when performed fast) and weapons which are typically done faster than solo open hand forms, all appear to retain some of the foot landing coordinated with the strike, I doubt that the principle contradicts Yang style principles. I just think that the principle was deemphasized in favor of a slow and even tempo – but that is forms, not usage!
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:56 pm

marvin8 wrote:No he doesn't. His leading foot lands first then left hand, not at the same time.

Leading foot landing include

- heel landing, and
- toes landing.

He coordinate his punch with his toes landing. When he lands his heel, his punch hasn't finished yet. When he lands his toes, his punch has full extension.

Please notice his

- right foot toes from up to down.
- left heel from down to off the ground.

This guy has good body coordination do you think?

Image
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:31 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:No he doesn't. His leading foot lands first then left hand, not at the same time.

Leading foot landing include

- heel landing, and
- toes landing.

He coordinate his punch with his toes landing. When he lands his heel, his punch hasn't finished yet. When he lands his toes, his punch has full extension.

Please notice his

- right foot toes from up to down.
- left heel from down to off the ground.

This guy has good body coordination do you think?

Image

So, are you arguing that MMA/boxing uses CMA six harmonies? Why cut off the complete punch in your original clip before analyzing the punch?

Here is your complete clip slowed down. It shows that "When he lands his toes," his arm continues to extend. Then, he throws a right hook without taking a step (on the half beat), not "coordinated" with his foot:

Image

johnwang wrote:This guy has good body coordination do you think?

There are significant differences between your baji guys' punches and the MMAist's, especially when the goal is to enter a clinch. I asked you what benefits you see in the baji guys' punches. However, I don't believe you answered.

You did not address some points and questions that posters and I made that may help answer/discuss your OP/subsequent questions.
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby Giles on Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:03 am

marvin8 wrote:So, are you arguing that MMA/boxing uses CMA six harmonies? Why cut off the complete punch in your original clip before analyzing the punch?

Here is your complete clip slowed down. It shows that "When he lands his toes," his arm continues to extend. Then, he throws a right hook without taking a step (on the half beat), not "coordinated" with his foot:


Hah, although the first strike in the combination is much more of a leaning long-distance punch, in essence that's what I meant by "first ground your foot as close to the opponent's center as possible and then, immediately after, fire off the strike". As an example of how tai chi striking is (or can be) trained.
Last edited by Giles on Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:59 am

Giles wrote:
marvin8 wrote:So, are you arguing that MMA/boxing uses CMA six harmonies? Why cut off the complete punch in your original clip before analyzing the punch?

Here is your complete clip slowed down. It shows that "When he lands his toes," his arm continues to extend. Then, he throws a right hook without taking a step (on the half beat), not "coordinated" with his foot:


Hah, although the first strike in the combination is much more of a leaning long-distance punch, in essence that's what I meant by "first ground your foot as close to the opponent's center as possible and then, immediately after, fire off the strike". As an example of how tai chi striking is (or can be) trained.

Yes. He took lead foot dominance by "grounding" his foot outside of the opponent's lead foot. His punch is on the opponent's center line, but his head is at the side door slipping (leaning) any counters. He is manipulating the center line by being in a position where he can hit the opponent (punching down the center) and the opponent can't hit him (opponent's center is not facing his center). There are more IMA (external too) concepts in play here.
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:27 pm

marvin8 wrote:You did not address some points and questions that posters and I made that may help answer/discuss your OP/subsequent questions.

Foot stamp is for training, In combat, both feet are sliding.

Since when using rhino guard in defense, the feet is not moving, it uses shoulder coordinate with hip principle.

- move hip to the right -> guide shoulders to the left.
- move hip to the left -> guide shoulders to the right.

Giles wrote:"first ground your foot as close to the opponent's center as possible and then, immediately after, fire off the strike". As an example of how tai chi striking is (or can be) trained.

Do you see that "small' leading foot stepping?

What he does is called "hide the preparation of your next move in your previous move". No matter which way you may choice, you still have to step in.
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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:08 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You did not address some points and questions that posters and I made that may help answer/discuss your OP/subsequent questions.



Since when using rhino guard in defense, the feet is not moving, it uses shoulder coordinate with hip principle.

- move hip to the right -> guide shoulders to the left.
- move hip to the left -> guide shoulders to the right.

My question was on the OP topic, rhino guard in offense:

Image

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:IMO, the coordinate punch with foot landing (either front foot, or back foot) is the body coordination 101. Without it, there will be no 6 harmony:

- hand coordinate with foot,
- elbow coordinate with knee,
- shoulder coordinate with hip,
- ...

Unless we want to throw away the basic CMA building block "6 harmony", the hand and foot coordination is a must. There should be no feet stop moving but hand is still moving.

"Rhino guard" does not follow six harmonies. Did you "throw away" rhino guard? If not, why not?

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Re: Coordinate your punch with your foot landing

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:46 pm

marvin8 wrote:"Rhino guard" does not follow six harmonies. Did you "throw away" rhino guard? If not, why not?

Can you carry a box with both arms, walk home, and still follow 6 harmony principle? I don't think it's possible. Why? Because your upper body is not changing, but your feet are still walking. IMO, 6 harmony makes sense in offense. It doesn't make sense in defense. Rhino guard uses sticky, follow principles that upper body is not changing, but feet are still moving.

1. Rhino guard - use "bulldozer" force (constant speed, and constant force). When you use "bulldozer" force, you are waiting for your opponent's respond.
2. Step in punch - use "bell curve" force (slow-fast speed, and soft-hard force).

For example, when the guy on the left pushes his opponent's elbow joint, he is using the "bulldozer" force. He is using sticky, follow, redirect principles. 6 harmony no longer make sense there because his upper body is not changing but his legs are still moving.

Image
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