Basic tools for all striking art

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Basic tools for all striking art

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:57 am

If we just look at the striking art, the following tools are needed.

- Jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
- Front heel kick, font toe kick, roundhouse kick, side kick.

Should a MA teacher teaches those tools to his students first before get into any solo form training? Those 8 tools can be linked into a short form as:

- Right front heel kick. left front toe kick, right roundhouse kick, right side kick, right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut.

This form then can be repeated and reverse the left and right so left side and right side will be balanced.

- Left front heel kick. right front toe kick, left roundhouse kick, left side kick, left jab, right cross, left hook, right uppercut.

Can we make this short form (or something similar) for all striking art systems on this planet?

Your thought?
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby pacman161 on Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:21 pm

Chinese styles in general don't really jab. And internal styles kick very little.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby Bao on Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:22 pm

johnwang wrote:If we just look at the striking art, the following tools are needed.

- Jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
- Front heel kick, font toe kick, roundhouse kick, side kick.


Why do you believe they are always needed?

Should a MA teacher teaches those tools to his students first before get into any solo form training?


IMHO, the most important for students to learn is body mechanics and footwork. But mechanics are very different in different arts. So how would you teach your students to Jab, cross, hook, uppercut with good power? How will you teach you students to Jab, cross, hook, uppercut?
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:12 am

Then advanced class, we include to the form- elbow, knee, and headbutting. ?
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:16 am

And the philosophy is - “attack is best Defence” So only striking needed, strike first, and strike hard.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:08 am

I'd say the most important tool is footwork.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby .Q. on Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:56 am

I teach a few traditional basic hand drills 1st, which somewhat abstractly trains jab and cross. But I do have them start out hitting pads w/ jab and straight very early on. I actually prefer new students to focus on basic drills before forms because forms take longer to see results. I want development as fast as possible. You never know how much longer a person will get to train.
One time I held a Xingyi seminar and I realized in 2 hours I only taught the basic drill for Pi. I didn't even have time to teach the form because I went through the standard basic Pi drill, explanation of force vectors, traditional applications and more lively application drills.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:14 pm

GrahamB wrote:I'd say the most important tool is footwork.

For beginners, they start with static punch and the footwork is not needed. The footwork will come in during the intermediate level training when they train dynamic punch.

Bao wrote:Why do you believe they are always needed?

My wife gave me a toolbox that contain many tools. There are some tools that I have not used yet. I may use it someday in the future.

Bao wrote:So how would you teach your students to Jab, cross, hook, uppercut with good power? How will you teach you students to Jab, cross, hook, uppercut?

I also add in back fist, hammer fist, and side punch (similar to XingYi Heng Chuan) into the list so the transition will be smooth.

For

1. beginner - punch coordinates with back foot landing.
2. intermediate - punch coordinates with front foot landing.

1. Cross - Step in left foot with right cross.
2. Hook - Step left foot to the right with left hook.
3. Back fist - Step in left foot with left back fist.
4. Uppercut - Step in right foot with right uppercut.
5. Hammer fist - Step in right foot with right hammer fist.
6. Jab - Step in left foot with left jab.
7. Side punch - Step in right foot with right side punch.

.Q. wrote:One time I held a XingYi seminar and I realized in 2 hours I only taught the basic drill for Pi. I didn't even have time to teach the form because I went through the standard basic Pi drill, explanation of force vectors, traditional applications and more lively application drills.

I feel the same way too. In order to force students to remember that a back ankle foot sweep will require you to bend your knee before sweeping, I add in a monkey stance between the bow-arrow stance and the finish of the sweep.

It takes time to explain detail of the Shenfa, power generation, body coordination, and ..., when you teach a form, you may not spend enough time in such detail.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby dspyrido on Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:06 pm

Throw in elbows, knees and head strikes and you've got a deal. Often ignored but very useful.

Or swap in basic blocking, evasion (slip, sway, roll) and stepping with distancing.

I would choose these basics over round and side kicks. A good round kick takes a lot longer to develop than a straight knee. Or another alternative is a stomp kick is easier to perform yet can also act as a block.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:47 am

Most techniques can and should be taught independently of form first IMO.

If you want to talk basic tools I would say you need a stance, and step forward and back. You also need a cover for the head and body. Add some steps and covers between the strikes and do the strikes in combos of 1-3 moves. If you are going to do a form or drill the sequences should be practical. If you just want to practice the moves you can do it by themselves. No need to do forms or drills that do the moves in an order that doesn't make sense.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:37 am

johnwang wrote:For

1. beginner - punch coordinates with back foot landing.

Can you explain or give an example of this? Most punches start with pushing off the back foot, not coordinate with it "landing."

johnwang wrote:2. intermediate - punch coordinates with front foot landing.

If this is the correct way, wouldn't you be teaching beginners a bad habit that they have to learn to break? So, Taiji brush knee would be wrong/not intermediate?

johnwang wrote:2. Hook - Step left foot to the right with left hook.

Start from parallel or southpaw stance? You mean cross your right foot with your left foot then hook? Do you have an example?

In your system, is one taught to step with every punch? If so, what are the advantages over taking one step and throwing two punches (e.g., jab/right hand)?
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:52 pm

dspyrido wrote:Throw in elbows, knees and head strikes and you've got a deal. Often ignored but very useful.

Or swap in basic blocking, evasion (slip, sway, roll) and stepping with distancing.

I have included 6 elbow strikes in my toolbox (and make it into a 6 moves short form for "recording" purpose).

- side way elbow.
- forward elbow.
- downward elbow.
- upward elbow.
- backward elbow.
- Double side way elbows (used to break a rear bear hug).

Not sure I want to include defense skills (such as blocking, dodging, footwork, ...) in my toolbox.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:55 pm

DeusTrismegistus wrote:Most techniques can and should be taught independently of form first IMO.

If you want to talk basic tools I would say you need a stance, and step forward and back. You also need a cover for the head and body. Add some steps and covers between the strikes and do the strikes in combos of 1-3 moves. If you are going to do a form or drill the sequences should be practical. If you just want to practice the moves you can do it by themselves. No need to do forms or drills that do the moves in an order that doesn't make sense.

The purpose of the toolbox approach are:

- You train MA in general. You are not training any particular MA style.
- If you always take 4 tools out of your toolbox and train those tools differently every week, when you need to use it, you will have at least 4 tools that you feel fresh.
- If you connect your tools and make it into a short form, you can "record" your tools nicely.
- ...
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:21 pm

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:For

1. beginner - punch coordinates with back foot landing.

Can you explain or give an example of this? Most punches start with pushing off the back foot, not coordinate with it "landing."

johnwang wrote:2. intermediate - punch coordinates with front foot landing.

If this is the correct way, wouldn't you be teaching beginners a bad habit that they have to learn to break? So, Taiji brush knee would be wrong/not intermediate?

johnwang wrote:2. Hook - Step left foot to the right with left hook.

Start from parallel or southpaw stance? You mean cross your right foot with your left foot then hook? Do you have an example?

In your system, is one taught to step with every punch? If so, what are the advantages over taking one step and throwing two punches (e.g., jab/right hand)?

Q1,
We are talking "dynamic punch" here that both of your feet are moving forward. Back foot pushing is the starting point of the power generation.

- Step in right foot (you have to push your back foot here).
- Right punch coordinate with left foot slide in. When the left back foot start to move, the right punch start to leave from your waist. When the left back foot stop moving, the right punch stop moving.

Q2.
IMO, it's not a good idea to jump right into the front foot landing coordination without going through the back foot landing coordination. When you throw a hook, your body will rotate, you either rotate with your back foot (move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path), or rotate with your front foot (step in and hook punch).

Q3:
When you throw 2 punches,

- 1st punch coordinate with front foot landing.
- last punch coordinate with back foot landing.

When you do 1 step 3 punches, you are no longer consider power generation. You are using the machine gun principle.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:28 pm

Bao wrote:Why do you believe they are always needed?

It will be available when you need it. If every week, you take 4 different tools out of your toolbox and train it, when you need to use it, you will have at least 4 tools that you feel fresh about it.
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