Basic tools for all striking art

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:40 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:For

1. beginner - punch coordinates with back foot landing.

Can you explain or give an example of this? Most punches start with pushing off the back foot, not coordinate with it "landing."

johnwang wrote:2. intermediate - punch coordinates with front foot landing.

If this is the correct way, wouldn't you be teaching beginners a bad habit that they have to learn to break? So, Taiji brush knee would be wrong/not intermediate?

johnwang wrote:2. Hook - Step left foot to the right with left hook.

Start from parallel or southpaw stance? You mean cross your right foot with your left foot then hook? Do you have an example?

In your system, is one taught to step with every punch? If so, what are the advantages over taking one step and throwing two punches (e.g., jab/right hand)?

Q1,
We are talking "dynamic punch" here that both of your feet are moving forward. Back foot pushing is the starting point of the power generation.

- Step in right foot (you have to push your back foot here).
- Right punch coordinate with left foot slide in. When the left back foot start to move, the right punch start to leave from your waist. When the left back foot stop moving, the right punch stop moving.

Your definition was understood before. However, it's clearer if you say, "Starting from southpaw" or "Starting with right foot forward." No, beginners should be taught retraction of right punch "coordinates with left foot slide in," bringing hand back to guard position for defense. Mistakenly, I thought this was more your idea. However, I see others think "punch coordinates with back foot landing" too. Here is a "Xing yi" guy doing just that.
(Edit: After trying your steps, I realize you may be starting from a parallel stance and doing more of a xing yi line drill. In that case, "parallel stance" or "feet together" may be more appropriate.)

Excerpts from "Xingyi stepping vs. karate stepping:"

Dan Djurdjevic on January 26, 2011 wrote:... xingyi requires you to land your technique with the lunge of the front foot and no later. ...


An example of how not to do xingyi stepping

Note that once your weight has been transferred to the front foot most of the momentum has stopped. Note that waiting for the back foot to stop sliding takes away most of that momentum, creating an arm punch.

johnwang wrote:Q2.
IMO, it's not a good idea to jump right into the front foot landing coordination without going through the back foot landing coordination. When you throw a hook, your body will rotate, you either rotate with your back foot (move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path), or rotate with your front foot (step in and hook punch).

No, that is a check hook when you "rotate with your back foot" which is different from the standard hook. If you "step left foot to the right with left hook (southpaw or orthodox?)," you expose your back to your opponent putting yourself out of position. Please, explain or show an example.

johnwang wrote:Q3:
When you throw 2 punches,

- 1st punch coordinate with front foot landing.

Yes.

johnwang wrote:- last punch coordinate with back foot landing.

No, "last punch coordinates" with weight transferred to the front foot. Pushing off the back foot creates momentum and helps generate ground force, not stop sliding of the back foot. You seem to misunderstand the back foot's role in power generation here.

johnwang wrote:When you do 1 step 3 punches, you are no longer consider power generation. You are using the machine gun principle.

No you are not. You can "consider power generation," not using wing chun chain punches. You generate power from opening and closing the kua, shifting weight, rotation, synergistic whole body power, etc.
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:06 am

johnwang wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Throw in elbows, knees and head strikes and you've got a deal. Often ignored but very useful.

Or swap in basic blocking, evasion (slip, sway, roll) and stepping with distancing.

I have included 6 elbow strikes in my toolbox (and make it into a 6 moves short form for "recording" purpose).

- side way elbow.
- forward elbow.
- downward elbow.
- upward elbow.
- backward elbow.
- Double side way elbows (used to break a rear bear hug).

Not sure I want to include defense skills (such as blocking, dodging, footwork, ...) in my toolbox.


Your forms lost me. Are you doing a form to cover many variations of a technique (eg 6 elbows) or how to combine them with other moves? Or are they different forms?

Are these basic things or trying to record basic & complex moves of a similar category (eg all elbow, all punches) in the one form?

As a basic system I would stick to:

- orthodox stance
- directional movement
- straight punches (jab, cross)
- straight kicks (front, rear leg)
- parry, head cover, body cover
- front kick leg block, outside leg check
- front knee
- horizontal elbow
- sprawl
- optional: head strike

Nothing fancy. This is enough to get a good foundation & many combinations can be built.

Then next level could include arcing strikes, evasions, leg swapping etc.
Next level could go hopping & jumping, spinning attacks, level changes etc.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:37 am

dspyrido wrote:Your forms lost me. Are you doing a form to cover many variations of a technique (eg 6 elbows) or how to combine them with other moves? Or are they different forms?

All those elbow tools are collected from different CMA systems.

1. Side way elbow - from long fist Lien Bu Chuan.
2. Forward elbow - from long fist Lien Bu Chuan
3. Downward elbow -- from SC head lock.
4. Upward elbow - from Baji little Baji Chuan.
5. backward elbow - from long fist elbow form.
6. Double side way elbows - from SC sticky drop principle.

Instead of requiring a student to learn many forms, A teacher can just help them to collect all the elbow striking tools. IMO, that's a teacher's job.

The side way elbow and forward elbow are in the long fist Lien Bu Chuan form (at 0.18 - 0.19)



Many elbow techniques can be seen in this long fist elbow form.



The usage of double side elbows can be seen at 0.51-0.55.

Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergic to "push".
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:37 pm

Ok i guess i just call these drills.

Here's 10 elbow methods.

1. Horizontal elbow
2. Reverse horizontal
3. Rising
4. Reverse rising (drawing the sword)
5. Cutting up
6. Cutting down
7. Downward pierce
8. Forward pierce
9. Forward forearm
10. Spiralling inward & outward

Then mix variations with 8 directions, level changes, double, spinning, lunging/charging, short range & jumping.

Repeat them 20 times with variations or j just combine them into random set of 200 or so moves for solo training.

Teaching this in a collection is not a basic method. Agree it's a library for the advanced student but not basic tools.

Same with 5 headbutt basics that then go into many variations.

Or kicks, punches, sprawl defenses etc.
Last edited by dspyrido on Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:08 pm

Most of the combat tools are already in the Taiji form.

Jab - vital punch.
Cross - brush knee.
Hook - striking tiger.
Uppercut - snake extend tone.
Back fist - turn around hammer.
Hammer fist - fetching arm.

Front toe kick - separate leg.
Front heel kick - turn around kick.
Reverse side kick - cross leg.
Outside crescent kick - swing leg like lotus.
Knee strike - hammer under elbow.

Wrist lock - needle at the bottom of the sea.
Elbow lock - defending hand.

Shoulder strike - diagonal fly.
Firemen's carry - slant body down.
...
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basic tools for all striking art

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:46 pm

See, that’s why it’s the ‘Grand Ultimate’ ... 8-)
Last edited by Trick on Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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