Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:33 pm

When you throw a back hand punch, both long fist and Taiji require shifting body weight from 4-6 stance into bow-arrow stance. So how can you tell the difference between a

- long fist external punch, vs.
- Taiji "internal" punch?

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Postby Subitai on Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:04 pm

Image

CMA is both...but anyway.

What makes you so certain that the Long Fist punch IS EXTERNAL (only) ?

I've been giving this simple guideline away for years and people always want to make it more difficult.

How to tell the difference in ANY method.

If the chest is more puffed up and / or full of tension during a movement (than your lower Dan Tien) = it is more external in nature.
* When I say chest puffed or full of tension...think of a person standing in attention military style...a bit over exaggerated but you get the idea.

! You cannot effectively DO BOTH. Meaning you cannot be full of energy or tension (and air) in the CHEST..AND at the same time be full of energy and have compression down to keep the dan tien FULL (like a dense ball) It must be ONE is more than another.

In Taiji for example, you always have the upper chest bow cavity more relaxed and the Dan Tien more full. That is the nature and one way to discern an internal method.


Look at this guy blocking on the right:

Image

His chest is definitely MORE FULL than his lower dan tien...ergo it is a more external method.
- It is easy to tell and point out. The way his left arm chambers, the elbow pulls back the left back scapula.
- the way he is linking his right blocking arm to his left makes his chest MORE full than his dan tien.

AGAIN...you do not and cannot consistently keep the UPPER Chest and lower Dan Tien FULL of energy simultaneously. That's not how CMA works. It is one or the other, it switches from upper to lower and back again. Yin / Yang.

==============================
Experiment for you John

In your moving GIF holding the bricks...it looks pretty standard and could also be the final pose or brush knee Left palm (or punch for all I care)

Hold the final punch posture the same way it ends in your gif. Have your student structure test against the direction or your strike. Which way will hold off your student better?

If you relax your chest / shoulders and sink your elbows (as you are doing in the gif) meaning your dan tien will be more full

OR

If you put tension in your chest, (Flex your pecs if you want to) experiment with feeling your upper chest more full than your dan tien. It won't work this way, a strong push against the structure will give you more trouble this way.

====================================

If in the same example...you chambered up your right arm and pulled your right elbow back...it will more it easier to do it more externally.
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Re: Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:00 pm

Subitai wrote:Have your student structure test against the direction or your strike.

I ask my students to just shift from 4-6 stance into bow-arrow stance, back and repeat (as shown in the clip). They can even put their arms behind their bodies. The arm motion is not important. When they do that, their chests are relax.
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Re: Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:07 pm

johnwang wrote:When you throw a back hand punch, both long fist and Taiji require shifting body weight from 4-6 stance into bow-arrow stance.

That’s the truth for the beginners TJQ......as for long fist I don’t know, maybe advanced long fist is same as advanced TJQ I will never find out.
Last edited by Trick on Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:54 am

There are many different schools of punching and methods in tjq. Maybe you could divide Changquan into more external and internal approach, but in tjq, there’s no real standard. You can find sort of standards in certain organizations, but as “tjq”, there’s none and everyone keeps saying ”this is how we do in my style”. If and only if they have punching methods.

In the picture,GIF, I see no storing and releasing. I have no idea what the rear side of the body is doing, in tjq, it’s the rear side that should drive the striking hand. Some people would probably say that he doesn’t use the dantian enough. Others put a lot of emphasis on using the ribs, open and close, to store and release. If it’s tjq or not depends more by how you use the core of the body than how the final posture looks like.

Good post @subitai
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Re: Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:26 pm

johnwang wrote:When you throw a back hand punch, both long fist and Taiji require shifting body weight from 4-6 stance into bow-arrow stance. So how can you tell the difference between a

- long fist external punch, vs.
- Taiji "internal" punch?

Image

Not speaking on long fist or Taiji (brush knee) specifically, it appears you are you are dipping then rising (vertical movement) as if to generate more power when you should be level as not to leak power. The timing and way your weight transfers doesn't seem correct in order to create a more powerful punch.

For a punch, you are not "coordinating" hand and foot. When your toes (heel-toe) land, your hand is still moving, only at your shoulder. Your weight should stay more on the back foot, then the weight should drop abruptly into the front hip:

Starting at 3:53, "Don’t shift weight at the beginning. Don’t do it. To the end, you do it very fast. …"

Correction: Yang Jun says, "... you do it very fast that's not the way either."
But, it doesn't change my earlier comments nor your post on "Coordinate your punch ..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGRs2FwjfeE&t=3m53s
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:36 pm

marvin8 wrote:Image
you should be level as not to leak power.

He can do better than me in this clip.

Image
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Re: Long fist punch vs. Taiji punch

Postby Yeung on Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:57 am

Well, if you call yours as Taiji then his is long fist. In fact not even proper long fist, as no body should push his or her knee forward before the hand technique. I think it is better to compare the reverse punch between different schools.
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