True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Quigga on Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:47 am

The age before Dantian and Nei Dan

So obviously there was a point in Daoist culture and cultivation teaching (if you want to name it that way) that was before following concepts:

Dantian, Jing/Chi/Shen, Li/Jin, Yi+Xi+Hun+Po+Zhi, Heaven-Human-Earth, etc...

It's easy to retroactively conceptualize a world view based on those "idea+realitys" - used by ancient philosophers and professional nature observers.

Because how do you cultivate yourself without knowing how? You become a spectator of inner and outer nature, learn to let go / release and to accept / bind.

Too much knowledge without wisdom leads to holding onto understanding in a pathologically tense way.

By reverse engineering you stumble into all of the potholes. Thus learning why the principles are the way they are. This is called backwards-learning. Forwards-learning is using already established concepts to analyze.

By being natural, observing and acting via tension-release (or so called relaxation) the natural body state returns.

Nature is real-i-zing
(reality + I + ZINGGG, heavenly electricity discharges = existence) itself.
The producing principle of nature is nature itself, called self-realization.

A body as we understand in modern world view is always 3 dimensional. Space, time and a result of their interactions. Then what is the universal body? By definition, there is only one body encompassing all of perceivable and unperceivable existence.

How do we learn to access and manipulate this one universal body in our favor and for everyone's well being? The answer is the method.

We got stuck in our understanding of esoteric Chinese practices and those of other cultures because we have a weak grasp of and unprofessional relationship to our language. Instead of trying to force two languages together, we should empower each country's tongue to come to the same conclusions. The wisdom-code is right here. Language a n d and choice of words aren't arbitrary.

My native tongue is German and many esoteric connections in the language can't be easily transported to English, but I'll try my best to convey what's important to me.

May all beings blossom how they should and according to their own nature.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Bill on Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:13 am

Just relax.













edited for politness.
Last edited by Bill on Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby charles on Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:35 am

Quigga wrote:You become a spectator of inner and outer nature....


Observing Nature is the basis for Western physics.

Too much knowledge without wisdom leads to holding onto understanding in a pathologically tense way.


Wisdom is "the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment". Many have knowledge but not sufficient experience or good judgement to qualify as wisdom. I suggest that wisdom is rare, though many have knowledge.

By reverse engineering you stumble into all of the potholes. Thus learning why the principles are the way they are. This is called backwards-learning. Forwards-learning is using already established concepts to analyze.


One could probably describe one as interpolating and the other as extrapolating from accepted knowledge.

A body as we understand in modern world view is always 3 dimensional.


The mathematician, philosopher and scientist, Descartes, in the 1600's, described "space" in terms of three dimensions.

Space, time and a result of their interactions.


Modern science regards time as the fourth dimension, building on Descartes' three. Kinematics, a sub-division of mechanics, is concerned with the interactions (motions) of "bodies" in space and time.


Then what is the universal body? By definition, there is only one body encompassing all of perceivable and unperceivable existence.


I don't know what you mean by "universal body". Why is there only one body encompassing all of perceivable and unperceivable existence? What is the nature of this universal body?

How do we learn to access and manipulate this one universal body in our favor and for everyone's well being? The answer is the method.

We got stuck in our understanding of esoteric Chinese practices and those of other cultures because we have a weak grasp of and unprofessional relationship to our language. Instead of trying to force two languages together, we should empower each country's tongue to come to the same conclusions. The wisdom-code is right here. Language a n d and choice of words aren't arbitrary.


The central issue is that many of the "esoteric Chines practices" produce effects that are "subjective". Any language is comprised of "words". Words are humans' attempt to express and convey to others their experiences. Words are often ambiguous as to their precise meaning, often depending upon context for meaning, and often aren't sufficiently capable of capturing what one experiences. In describing the color blue, for example, to someone who is color blind, words are inadequate to convey the experience. One can attempt to describe the feeling of "qi" circulating, but unless one has experienced it for oneself, it is only academic knowledge. If one hasn't experienced it, how do they know when they have?

While it is important in most forms of communication to chose specific words that, as much as possible, avoid miscommunication or ambiguity of meaning, that still is insufficient in some circumstances, particularly those that are more esoteric/subjective.

It is, I believe, essential to recognize that "cultivation" is an experiential process. Words and language can't replace first-hand experience in such practices. In popular vernacular, the words and language are the map, the experience is the terrain.
Last edited by charles on Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby everything on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:01 pm

It seems like not a bad - probably better - idea to see what you can figure out on your own, because it's in your body. But even "internal" MA enthusiasts do not seem to have much interest in what's happening "internally".

Like Charlie (not sure of his last name) discovered his healing power via what we would call qi from a TCM point of view, but he probably had no idea what to make of it.

But at some point, people before figured a lot of stuff out and tried to pass it down, so it doesn't make sense to ignore it.
Last edited by everything on Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Quigga on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:16 pm

Bill wrote:Quigga please.

Just relax.


Thanks for the addition, I was about to get angry.
My heart isn't fully open yet. But I see so much wrong in the world and I won't sit by idly. I work as an examined nurse with elderly people and have a great training field for my cultivation. One of my goals is to unite "professional care" with Nei Dan to achieve professional living.

I want to create something that doesn't force you to believe in any single thing you don't want to. And yet accomplish everything without you knowing.
A rational basis for Nei Dan that can start from any point of argumentation or reality.

Just sitting on old stones isn't enough. We have to learn how to apply Nei Dan in the 21st century and how to make it accessible to everybody's mind and life.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Bill on Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:58 pm

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to offend you.

Bringing the Tao to people is a wonderful goal and I wish you great success.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Quigga on Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:31 pm

charles wrote:
Quigga wrote:You become a spectator of inner and outer nature....


Observing Nature is the basis for Western physics.
-----
1) Yes, Nature obviously expresses itself in ways we can understand. You seem to fail to make the implied distinction between observing Nature via the lense we call "Western Physics" vs. "Intimately Spectating something and Letting It Change Your Being".

Too much knowledge without wisdom leads to holding onto understanding in a pathologically tense way.


Wisdom is "the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment". Many have knowledge but not sufficient experience or good judgement to qualify as wisdom. I suggest that wisdom is rare, though many have knowledge.
-----
2) All words have their distinct meanings and are arranged in patterns - I don't mean context in a sentence, but more like independent, individual, pure spheres that form a relationship via the sentence.

If knowledge is the front-yang part of the process, wisdom is the yin-back part. Knowledge is forwards living, wisdom is backwards living. Living always implies moving forward.


By reverse engineering you stumble into all of the potholes. Thus learning why the principles are the way they are. This is called backwards-learning. Forwards-learning is using already established concepts to analyze.


One could probably describe one as interpolating and the other as extrapolating from accepted knowledge.
-----
3) You could say I'm using learned knowledge to inspect learned knowledge. I'm saying break down knowledge and consciousness so that you can learn like a child again.

A body as we understand in modern world view is always 3 dimensional.


The mathematician, philosopher and scientist, Descartes, in the 1600's, described "space" in terms of three dimensions.
-----
4)I think we're making essentially the same connection, I mean you and me? I was alluring to people calling their body... Well, body. Not knowing that by all means and purposes there is only one cosmic body with different flows being governed by mediators/judges/generals/etc. With the small ego being just a minor gate administrator.
So when you work your body, by necessity you work your surroundings and if you're good enough across all planes. It just depends on how good your body work is... The underlying principles never change and in essence the way is always the same.


Space, time and a result of their interactions.


Modern science regards time as the fourth dimension, building on Descartes' three. Kinematics, a sub-division of mechanics, is concerned with the interactions (motions) of "bodies" in space and time.
-----
5) OK, I made a mistake. I didn't want to say a body's 3 dimensions are space, time and a result of their interactions. I saw the 3 and thought: in essence, what is a body made of? Substance, Change, Observer. Space, Time, Result of blabla.

Then what is the universal body? By definition, there is only one body encompassing all of perceivable and unperceivable existence.


I don't know what you mean by "universal body". Why is there only one body encompassing all of perceivable and unperceivable existence? What is the nature of this universal body?
-----
6)The nature of this universal body is like dog shit. Completely ordinary and all you will ever get. You can experience all kinds of bliss in meditation, but it's just a nice distraction.

I don't know why there is an universal body . I just tried explaining it and my head didn't work. It's what feels right and makes sense to me, i.e. my perceived experience.


How do we learn to access and manipulate this one universal body in our favor and for everyone's well being? The answer is the method.

We got stuck in our understanding of esoteric Chinese practices and those of other cultures because we have a weak grasp of and unprofessional relationship to our language. Instead of trying to force two languages together, we should empower each country's tongue to come to the same conclusions. The wisdom-code is right here. Language a n d and choice of words aren't arbitrary.


The central issue is that many of the "esoteric Chines practices" produce effects that are "subjective". Any language is comprised of "words". Words are humans' attempt to express and convey to others their experiences. Words are often ambiguous as to their precise meaning, often depending upon context for meaning, and often aren't sufficiently capable of capturing what one experiences. In describing the color blue, for example, to someone who is color blind, words are inadequate to convey the experience. One can attempt to describe the feeling of "qi" circulating, but unless one has experienced it for oneself, it is only academic knowledge. If one hasn't experienced it, how do they know when they have?
-----
7) Those effects are subjective. Yes, of course. But the principles behind them are objective. Employ the correct principles and you will get predictable results. A + B = C.
Principle + Person it's applied to = range of predictable consequences, with a few outliers.

I think of words as literal things that are alive. Sphere-like beings, each completely distinct and individually accessible. We humans muddle the meaning of words with morality and false notions designed to protect our Selfs. This is stupid.

In your example with blue... Why would I even try to describe it with words? That's a failing operation from the beginning. Has it been studied? Like telling blind people how colors feel and then asking if they saw something like that. Or maybe those are just two different ways for being to express itself: words and vision. What you lack you can't use to build. I don't know.

If you don't feel Chi you don't have any emotions whatsoever and never change your activity. It's exactly this pretentiousness about Chi that makes it harder to understand. Of course you can refine your feelings when talking about certain circulations etc. Everybody feels something in their, even if it's stagnation and desperation.
Just use this as a base for cultivation.

-----
While it is important in most forms of communication to chose specific words that, as much as possible, avoid miscommunication or ambiguity of meaning, that still is insufficient in some circumstances, particularly those that are more esoteric/subjective.

8) Sure, humans misunderstood each other since forever. That's our way. In the end the phenomenona don't matter anyway. What matters are the principles, the truth of reality... How it feels, looks, works doesn't matter. It only matters that it matters.
------
It is, I believe, essential to recognize that "cultivation" is an experiential process. Words and language can't replace first-hand experience in such practices. In popular vernacular, the words and language are the map, the experience is the terrain.
-----
9) Absolutely right! Now throw away the map and the terrain and be free! Or something like that.
Words can initiate you by your own unconscious doing into a small glimpse of emptiness. I don't want more than to light a few fires with a handful of poems.





I'm getting tired... Formatting is still new to me. Hope you can see everything clearly. See you all tomorrow
Last edited by Quigga on Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Quigga on Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:38 am

Bill, no how harm done.

The above post is hard to read. Will format it better later, but it's annoying on mobile.

I realize that sometimes I come off as arrogant, dismissing and too direct. But I'm very frustrated with myself and the world. My biggest wish is to cut this wisdom into it's simplest form possible. And to create a methodology that works completely without non-provable things, whether by argument or by practice.

Everything:
Yes, sadly even IMAists will frequently turn a blind eye to mind cultivation. Failing to transcend battle and to leave it behind. Because being tutored by Nature obviously includes defending your self and livelihood. If it doesn't, well, the introspection and transformation haven't gone deep enough. I hate pacifists.

What Charlie discovered is exactly what I'm talking about. Leave out spiritual pretentious mumbo jumbo and cut straight to the core. Don't care about how the truth looks lilike, care about the truth! You only need a small entry into emptiness, then recreate the feeling and let go. Literally all of life with it's actions giving you good karma opportunities takes care of it self. Never learn stuff more than necessary. If you do, you got bad teachers. In my very humble opinion as a 25 year old.....

Absolutely, ignoring already accumulated wisdom and knowledge is stupid by me. But I wanted to paint a light in harsh contrast to using what we learned... Because in this day of information age, who knows that what they learned is right? Inspecting all of one's learned knowledge takes a looooong time - > wisdom inspection, meditating about a specific topic (Benjamin Franklin did this).

Using already established principles to quicken learning is certainly valid. But at one point or another, you are forced to believe in them to truly grasp it or will inevitably arrive there by your own deduction and experiential conclusion. Why not directly start at zero and avoid the block of a forced belief?

At this point I wish to thank my teachers for all of their efforts.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Quigga on Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:57 pm

Hey Charles, you removed your comment? I screen shotted it and will expand my reply later. You had your reasons, feel free to speak your mind.
-------------------------

I can live with being contradictory :D Forcing people to view the same element from both sides is good for neuroplasticity, is it not ???

Regarding frustration... it sucks to be so small and limited in a human body with so much going wrong in the world. Then again, "world" is subjective experience, "World" is objective truth which is objective truth and can't be improved. The World is always fine! Same with nature and Nature.

"Defining what works completely": A method that can lead every being to enlightenment. Giving every life the chance to experience the maximum amount of karmic liberation. And for me, this is a very precise goal. Of course, I don't really care what benefit or desire draws people to start practicing! I only care that the practice is right. I'm open for discussion but over the last 12 years of my Nei Dan practice/inquiry I formed some pretty solid arguments.

My name is Thomas Kwiatek. Thomas for Twin and Kwiatek, polish for Flower. So my name is Twin Flower. One is my ego-mind, the other my higher self or soul. 23.07.95, 01:20am for anyone that cares.

Establishing and stabilizing this connection, forming it into a singal unified experience is quite an adventure. What I want to teach gets muddled with my unclean personality. I'm sorry for that. I will try to be as clear, coherent and concise as possible.

Mind cultivation is practice of awareness. How to manipulate it, where it stems from, what it consists of. Using that awareness to achieve the reversal of light. How to use the mind to use the body. Powerful moving and still body work initiated and controlled on a mental-spiritual level.

Hate fits pretty easily into things as the opposite of love and another way to get bound up in duality. Hate is just another neccessary component of Nature. How we deal with it is important, not it's existence. Trying to kill or supress hate will make it stronger. True hate will hate forever.

Pacifists are disgusting to me because they pass their responsibility for violence to other people. The one beating your face in, the police man, the soldier and other professionals. They take their own potential completely out of the argumentative equation. I can't think of any reason to be one other than traumatic life experiences leading to stuck agression. I don't endorse unneccessary violence.

Bottom line: what I'm saying is contradictory in itself. Use the principles to let go of them and see that they're true.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:56 am

We committed two wrongdoings that lead us astray, we ate the forbidden fruit, and then we tried to reach heaven showing off by building a skyscraper, but it failed, and keeps on failing......all we now seem able is keep on Babel
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Quigga on Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:07 am

For sure, maybe my big words will always come crashing down. I could be trying to forcefully cram too much material in too little time. But I think the attempt is worth it and I'll grow as a person.
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby everything on Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:51 pm

starting at zero seems a bit too difficult to me. "empty your cup" is a great notion, but it'd be hard to try to get rid of literally everything. once you say you have this reverse-engineered self-"discovered" method, if you tell us anything about it, you giving us your solution to find x when you said people should empty their cup and solve for x on their own means you will go against your own claim. or that you somehow think your solution is somehow better than the solutions that already exist. "the Tao that can be told is not the true Tao" and all that. but if you have a (less wordy) explanation, it'd be interesting at least.
Last edited by everything on Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby yeniseri on Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:28 am

The shamans, who began this process had a special awareness, a developed awareness! an intuitive awareness! that allowed them to sense that Nature! was the template and they begna to develop that sinsitivity to learn from the invisible world ??? As such, they codified that element of knowledg awareness, intuiion (use your own words) to attempt to make reality what they experienced, saw, felt, etc as a guide to, and for the perplexed, and the common people.

These shamans wanted us to imitate nature in a benevolent way but as usual, we failed to undersuand/comprehend, etc the natural way per our capability.
I realize that to Relax seems simple enough but in relaxation, there are many domains to conquer, just as in the concept of Wellness, where the various domains all hinge on a common understandable base on which the concept adhere to, be it Clarity, Honesty, Uprightness but there has to be convergence and synchronity where everything comes together for each of us to follow that 'better" (relative term here) path based on our capability
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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby jimmy on Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:08 pm

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Re: True Natural Cultivation, Before Nei Dan and IMA

Postby Quigga on Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:03 am

The Way is self evident. The body is a esoteric map. Different body parts represent different aspects of Reality. Shoulders carry, knees buckle, hips swing...How deep you can penetrate a part is most important. The Spirit / awareness is asking a question, which in energetic terms is the condesing / focusing aspect of qi / feeling / energy. It draws in from all sides toward the point...Metal phase in Wuxing. The first step of the Way is to move from Metal to Water. You use concentration to break down boundaries and get a new sense of Reality to guide your small reality. This is the essence of body work, breaking boundaries by strengthening and removing. Then the 5 phases move in their usual turns of creation, Metal Water Wood Fire Earth Metal, until a new stable point is reached.

Observing, releasing, acting naturally. Using the body's fluids, innards, gases, pockets of air, stomach content, urine and stool, everything as a way of unifying force and pacifying tension.

Basically you become your own teacher. Everything you need to know is inside you... you just have to know how to look deep enough and to deal with what's being released.
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