Heretical history of Tai Chi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:40 am

And in the Mark Chen book it says Zhaopi taught a communist flavoured style - they used to recite verses of the red book as they practiced - it was the only way the red guards would let them keep practicing. I’ll find the page and post it.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:08 am

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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Tom on Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:39 am

HotSoup wrote:Guess, then we need to separate between Silk Reeling, the principle of using one’s own body, and the type of exercises popularized by the village folks. From that perspective, I agree that, most likely, they got the idea of calling the repetitive circling exercises “Silk Reeling” from Feng, when he was teaching in the village, in the 80th.

Now, did Feng actually invent them? That’s a good question. On one hand, Silk Reeling, the principle, has traditionally been taught in the form. On the other, other people, like Hong Junshen and Xiaojia folks also taught similar exercises, they just didn’t call them “silk reeling”, but rather just “circles”. Hong and Feng weren’t close, they didn’t like each other and didn’t train together, meaning the chances that Hong picked up those exercises from Feng are small. And their usage in Xiaojia lineages only affirms that they predate Feng by generations. Was Feng the one who started calling them “Silk Reeling” and that name stuck? That looks very plausible, but that’s pretty much it.


In 2000, when I asked Feng Zhiqiang (via his student and translator) about the provenance of Feng's extensive (30+ exercises) set of chansigong, he said that his teacher, Chen Fake, used to constantly move arms and hands in silk-reeling movements, even when casually conversing. The idea of systematically training this fundamental coordination and quality of movement grew from that example, according to Feng.

In 2002, I asked Chen Xiaowang directly (his English was decent) about where his particular set of chansi exercises came from. He said that after the Cultural Devolution the government wanted taijiquan taught systematically as physical education, and silk-reeling exercises were systematized at that time, almost as a kind of calisthenic.
Needless to say, this is just my opinion. Please feel free to disregard it. ;D
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:41 pm

Tom wrote:
HotSoup wrote:Guess, then we need to separate between Silk Reeling, the principle of using one’s own body, and the type of exercises popularized by the village folks. From that perspective, I agree that, most likely, they got the idea of calling the repetitive circling exercises “Silk Reeling” from Feng, when he was teaching in the village, in the 80th.

Now, did Feng actually invent them? That’s a good question. On one hand, Silk Reeling, the principle, has traditionally been taught in the form. On the other, other people, like Hong Junshen and Xiaojia folks also taught similar exercises, they just didn’t call them “silk reeling”, but rather just “circles”. Hong and Feng weren’t close, they didn’t like each other and didn’t train together, meaning the chances that Hong picked up those exercises from Feng are small. And their usage in Xiaojia lineages only affirms that they predate Feng by generations. Was Feng the one who started calling them “Silk Reeling” and that name stuck? That looks very plausible, but that’s pretty much it.


In 2000, when I asked Feng Zhiqiang (via his student and translator) about the provenance of Feng's extensive (30+ exercises) set of chansigong, he said that his teacher, Chen Fake, used to constantly move arms and hands in silk-reeling movements, even when casually conversing. The idea of systematically training this fundamental coordination and quality of movement grew from that example, according to Feng.

In 2002, I asked Chen Xiaowang directly (his English was decent) about where his particular set of chansi exercises came from. He said that after the Cultural Devolution the government wanted taijiquan taught systematically as physical education, and silk-reeling exercises were systematized at that time, almost as a kind of calisthenic.


Questions that come to mind.
Silk Reeling as we see today (from Chen Xiaowang let's say) was systematized from what?

Listening to Graham's podcast, while it may be possible that the form known as Lao Jia Yi Lu was perhaps retrofitted from Yang TJQ in Beijing and later introduced into Chen Village via Chen Zhaopi and Chen Zhoukui, what explains that Small Frame Chen has this same form?

What is the oldest lineage of Small Frame forms that we can see somewhere?

The string of movements is in the order of Shaolin forms, which I have shown on Chen TJQ vs Shaolin Xie QUan charts mapping them one to one.
it is interesting that Small frame does that hook behind the back move, which the Shaolin Xie Quan set does in the same place along the form, except Shaoln Xie Quan does it facing sideways instead of head on that Small Frame does. So Chen Small Frame is even closer to looking like Shaolin Xie Quan.
You can see how the forms map up here:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf

Perhaps the Wu brothers with Yang Luchan built it from the Shaolin martial arts known in their home town?
Looks like it.
If Yang didn't really go to Chen village as claimed, the Shaoiin forms can clearly be shown to correspond to their "Taiji Quan" form, whole chunks of movements follow in the the same order. Even the Shaolin sets repeat a section in the same place where it does in the Chen / Yang form.

Also, another related question:
Wu Taji Quan (not the Wu/Hao version) is said to descend from Yang Banhou's influence.
When you compare whatever Yang Banhou forms that are available to see to this Wu style, the seem a little bit related, for example the whole first section ending with Single Whip. Both sets are similar and you can infer the Wu from this Yang Banhou TJQ
BUT, BUT, when you look at Quanping TJQ, the first section is done almost the same as in this Wu TJQ.
Quanping TJQ is very very close to Wu looking, especially the very beginning of the set to Single Whip.
So, again that connects to Yang Banhou in origin.
But did he teach Wu's the same stuff he taught to founder of Quanping?

notice the first section
Quanping TJQ:


Wu Style TJQ:


basic Yan Banhou TJQ:
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:47 pm

Sal - is there a video online of a shaolin form similar to yang’s tai chi sequence?
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:55 pm

GrahamB wrote:Sal - is there a video online of a shaolin form similar to yang’s tai chi sequence?


See the chart I just posted, the Chen form is the same as the Shaolin XIe Quan, and other researchers pointed this out back in the 1980s.

The missing moves from that chart are found in other Shaolin forms, they just grabbed pieces to make transitions, from Shaolin Ape-Monkey set and other sets,
All the sets they used have the opening moves the same as in TJQ, including Lazy tying coat, Jingang pounds the mortar, and many others.

As far as the Yang version, to me they made or remade the form, using movements from Shaolin Hong Quan, but at that time it was the old version not today's short version.
here is the old version, you need to watch it in slow motion to see how it fits better.
At :26 is the repeating sequence that Yang uses for their opening with the Lazy tying coat type of moves.

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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:03 pm

All the Shaolin movements and the qigongs that TJQ pretty much used as a foundation give credence to the viewpoint that the Tongbei Quan style introduced these Shaolin forms into Chen village arts. The nephew of the founder interacted with them in the 1500s.
The founder of Tong Bei Quan was first a student of 2 monks from Shaolin, from whom he learned Lao Xiao Hong Quan (the set in the previous video), Da Hong Quan, 3 Section Pao Chuo, 3 section Tong Bi, 6 section Rou Quan, Jingang Quan, Ape-Monkey Quan, and TZ Chang Quan.
The papers from Chen village that Tang Hao and others have looked through even mention that this is where their martial arts come from.

Before going to Chen village, the founder (Dong) of Tong Bei Quan later learned 6 harmony spear (plum spear) and Daoist Sword fighting from the Songxi branch of Wudang Martial Arts.
He incorporated this material with the Shaolin he learned to create Tong Bei Quan.
Which is based on White Ape (the Gibbon, the Ape-Monkey) and old Chen papers even mention that the White Ape influence.

Note: The Xie Quan does not have punches in places where the Chen form does, and the Zhao Bao version of TJQ does not have these punches either (can be seen in the chart)
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:23 pm

So, this is from my book "Hidden History of Chinese Internal Martial Arts" , this is part of the Tai Ji Chapter.
It is long but relevant to what the topic is. At the end, look at the lists of forms movements, they are nearly the same:

3i. Chen Wangting’s Original Taiji Connection
These original four routines from Chen Wangting were known as the ‘Thirteen Postures Later Four Routines’ in Chen Village. Indeed, the old Chen family records that were reviewed by Tang Hao in the 1930s did say that there were once four short Tong Bei routines that are now lost from the original art of Chen Wangting, the Four Routines Boxing Manual of Chen Village. After Chen Wangting learned the Taoist ‘Tongbei 13 Postures’, he and his cousins Li Zhong and Li Xin together changed the first and second sets of Tongbei Xing Quan (Walking or Travelling Boxing), the Tongbei 24 Posture set, and one Tongbei ‘Taizu Xia Nan Tang’ set (which originally came from the Shaolin Wu or Hong Quan system) into their ‘Taiji Yangsheng Gong’.
According to Chen’s Quan and Spear Chart, Wenxiu Hall Quan Chart, and Liangyitang Chart, etc., the texts mention various Shaolin materials, "Hong Quan breaking the wall" and "Gun-beating against wind" of "Short-Beating" (Duanda) and the "Eighteen Grasping Techniques of Jin Gang" (which focuses on the practice of grasping and bones' dismantling and "Zhanyi eighteen tumbling" for tumbling or rotation (as in Bafan Shou) method. Finally, the chart says, “If you want to know the source of the Quan, it came from Taizu Xia Nan Tang” (which is the older name for what is now called Taizhu Chang Quan at Shaolin).

In his writings, Dr. Yan Zhiyuan states, “On the basis of the 13 Postures that the Li brothers and Chen studied, they softened the motions of Tongbei Quan and turned them into the above four routines. It could be that this was an early creation, which did not reach fruition, or that they later created another style of boxing; for whatever reason, these routines were not preserved in either Tang Village or Chen Village. Yet they were passed on to the Yuan family of Jiyuan, where they were known as the four routines of ‘Divine Boxing’. Chen Wangting later on also met Jiang Fa (蔣發) and took him to his village to further learn the ‘13 posture Soft Hands’ from him”, once he discovered that Jiang was a practitioner of this style.
So, the ‘Taiji Cultivating Life’ sets were abandoned later on as early as the Chen 12th or 13th generation by Chen family; the Li family also forgot it as evidenced by Li Heling not having them in his quanpu. But, these sets were kept intact in nearby Ji Yuan village. As Li's quanpu recorded the names of these movements from ‘13 Postures Soft Hands’, it shows that the ‘13 Postures’ set has nothing to do with Chen Wangting’s ‘Taiji Cultivating Life’. But, the Chen family kept the names in an old Chen quanpu, which Tang Hao had found; in comparing the movement names of the ‘Taiji Cultivating Life’ sets, the four short sets of ‘Taiji Cultivating Life’ were exactly the same as some short Tong Bei Quan sets (of Hong Quan).. These were the lost 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Chen ‘13 Postures’, by comparing the names of their movements; they are exactly same as ones shown in Tongbei quanpu. Li Daozi (李道子)’s ancient art of ‘Wuji Cultivating Life’ was still practiced by Li Chunmao, and Li also wrote a quanpu for it, it is a neigong exercise, and has nothing to do with the ‘13 Postures Soft Hands’ as well.

Also, Chen's 108 Long Fists movement names are exactly the same as Tongbei's 108 Long Fist (and the same is true for their Guan Dao 关刀 set). Further proof is that a Chen 12th generation inheritor left Chen Village and went to Hongdong in Shanxi, the ancestral home of the Chen family (and of the Dong family!). This Chen Bufu is believed to have committed a crime while aiding some people. He relocated to Hongdong and changed his name to Guo Yungfu. According to a boxing manual kept by Xu Kuisheng, Guo Yongfu learned the Hongdong Tongbei style from Ji Junsheng. According to the late Meng Naichang (based on his analysis of Hongdong Tongbeiquan text Zhong Yi Quan Tu Gao Ben - The Illustrated Book of Zhong Yi Boxing - published in 1936), the 108 Long Fist set was brought by Guo Yongfu (native of Henan, lived during Qianlong period) to Hongdong. The set is considered to be ‘Long Fist Boxing in 108 Postures’ lost in Chenjiagou. The comparison of ‘General Song of Boxing Classic’ recorded in Chen style manuals and names of movements of Chen style Long Fist Boxing and those of this Tongbei Quan are almost identical. In 1975, Chen Liqing, from Chen village, visited Hsu Fong Qin Hsu in Shanxi and recovered the form.

3j. Changes to the Original Chen Taiji
When Tang Hao went to Chen village, he found there were five sets of ‘13 Postures Soft Hands’ originally there, only the first set 头套 was still practiced, the rest of the four were lost. In summary, these four were the sets created by Chen Wangting and his cousins the Li brothers, also called "Taiji Cultivating Life". To create them, they used the Thirteen Postures Soft Hands' principles, which they learned from Taoist Dong Bingqian, to alter four short sets of Tongbei Quan, which they also had learned from Dong Bingqian. They did not change the names of the movements, keeping them the same as in the original four short sets of Tongbei, which Tang Hao was able to discern on further investigation.

In 1990, a copy was accidently found in Chen Xin's hand writing of a Chen Village quanpu that contained various Tongbei set names. One of these four sets was originally called Tai Zu Xia Nan Tang, which is one form from the Da Hong Quan system that Dong Cheng had first learned (which shows that Dong’s Tongbei Quan was keeping its Shaolin derived original roots, but changed their way of practice after Dong Cheng also exchanged information with Wang Zongyue and later Zhang Songxi.

Altogether, there have been three Chen masters that have at some point mixed Tong Bei Quan with the Taoist 13 Postures routine. The first, of course, was 9th generation member Chen Wangting, and his cousins Li Zhong and Li Xin, who learned from Dong Bingqian, etc. Another one was 17th generation member Chen Fake, who much later mixed Tongbei Quan long fist into the Er Lu Pao Chui set. Some say he softened this Pao Chui set by merging it with some Tongbei Quan ideas.

Another person was 14th generation member Chen Youben (陳有本), who did the opposite of Chen Wangting by changing the Chen family’s version of the Taoist ‘13 Posture’ routine by mixing in Long Fist material from Tongbei Quan. The first set that researcher Tang Hao saw in his visit to Chen village was the one that Chen Youben created, in which he had mixed Taizu Chang Quan -太祖长拳 set that came from Tongbei Quan into Taoist original Thirteen Postures Soft Hand; this can be seen by comparing the movement's names of Chen Yi Lu (first set) with the names of the movements from the Thirteen Postures Soft Hand that was recorded by the Li family in the early Qing dynasty. Chen family records showed that Chen Youben changed the old routines that Chen Wangting had learned from Qianzai Temple Priests Bogong and Dong Bingqian together with his uncle Li Chun Mao and Li's sons Li Zhong and Li Xing.

Records found in the 1930s by Tang Hao showed that a new ‘Chen 13 Postures’ routine was developed by Chen Youben after reexamining the “reeling” principle of Tongbei quan. Chen Youben developed his own mix of ‘13 Postures Soft Hands’ and material from Tongbei Quan (which was postures from a Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan set that Dong Cheng’s Tongbei Quan system practiced). The matching Shaolin sets also were very closely related back in time to Dong Cheng’s ‘Tongbei Quan’ system, since Dong had once learned ‘Taizu Chang Quan’, ‘Da Hong Quan’, and Bai Yufeng’s Shaolin ‘Wu Quan’, as stated previously in this book. Some branches of the Tongbei Quan style (Five Elements Tongbei and Luoyang Tongbei) still possess a set called ‘Qi Xing Hua Ji Pao’ that closely follows similar sequential movements as seen both in various Shaolin sets and the Chen Yi Lu set.

Chen Youben was later known for creating the Xin Jia (new frame) of the Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu sets. His grandson was Chen Xin, who wrote a book to record the new form as he, like other Chen people by then, thought the new one was greater. This set was the version of the ‘Chen 13 Sections’ that Tang Hao saw when he visited Chen village in his research endeavors. Also, a Bao Quan (Pao Chui) set that Tang Hao saw at Chen village was also derived from Shaolin Da Hong Quan or Taizu Quan.

On the other had, fellow 14th generation member Chen Changxing is thought (by Wu Yuxiang) to have preserved the original version of this ‘13 Postures Soft Hands’ routine and later passed it to his famous student Yang Luchan, who in turn merged it with other influences to create Yang Taiji Quan, which explains why Yang Taiji Quan’s main routine’s movement names are the same as in the Taoist ‘13 Postures Soft Hands’ rather than as the movement names now are in standard Chen Taiji Quan (for example, terms like “Grasp the Sparrow’s Tail” are in Yang Taiji Quan and in the ‘13 Postures Soft Hands’, but not used in Chen Taiji Quan).

3k. Wang Zongyue and Jiang Fa Controversy
Chen Xin (16th generation) was the first to write about Chen history. Chen Xin authored a book, Chen Family Taijiquan Pictures and Sayings. He stopped writing it in 1919, but a later edition was published in 1928, after his death. Chen Xin’s writings from 1919 discuss Chen Wangting’s legendary meeting with someone named “Jiang Fa” (蔣發), who became Chen’s retainer and taught Chen his martial arts. But, other contradictory writings by Chen Xin and others instead say that a person named “Jiang” taught the ‘13 Postures’ to 14th generation Chen Changxing, which was much later in time, being about 100 years later.

Obviously, there must be two people named “Jiang” involved, one is known only as “Jiang” and the other “Jiang Fa”; both are confused by most people discussing this story. Not only that but, as noted in the book Scholar Boxer: Chang Naizhou's Theory of Internal Martial Arts, there is a Qing era document, the Sishui District Gazetteer, that mentions a Henan area martial artist named Zhang Ba, which is very close to Jiang Fa phonetically. Zhang was from Hulao Pass (between Louyang and Shaolin area), and was well known for having defeated various bandits and rebels. Chang Naizhou 苌乃周 in his own writings mentions Zhang Ba as well. This Zhang Ba lived during the same time period that Chen Wangting and “Jiang” had lived. Perhaps Zhang Ba was the correct name for “Jiang” in actuality.

In Chen Xin’s 1928 book, a song formula attributed to someone named “Jiang” was added into Chen Xin’s book via an annotation made by an unknown person before its final publication. It is very likely that a 1928 marginal note was made by someone else, perhaps someone who was confused or who wanted to confuse people. This “Jiang” was said to have received the song formula from his (unnamed) teacher in Shanxi (who would be incorrectly considered to be “Wang Zongyue”, as shown later in this book). Somehow, this “Jiang” came to be popularly considered the source from whom 9th generation Chen Wangting (and Zhao Bao village) had learned the ‘13 Postures’ material from.

What the Wen Xiu Tang boxing manual (the text is dated September 22nd, 1928) actually states is: "It should be known that Chen Family Boxing was already famous in the Yuan dynasty, my ancestor [Chen Bu] was very famous in the beginning of Ming dynasty, and [the boxing] was not taught by Jiang; before Chen Zouting [nick-name for Chen Wangting], in early Ming there were many good boxers (in the Chen clan); after Chen Zouting there were many good boxers as well. It is important to know that Chen Zouting lived in the Ming dynasty [1368-1644], while Jiang Bashi ["Bashi" was a popular term for skilful martial artists] lived during the reign of emperor Qianlong [1736-1795], it is absurd to point out that Chen Family Boxing came from Jiang. Such claim is absurd, and Jiang by any means cannot be considered Chen Zouting's teacher, he lived in another period . . . and was not as good as Chen Zouting, there is no need to talk nonsense and make people uncertain, from now on it is absolutely forbidden to say that Chen Family Boxing was passed by Jiang . . .". Thus, clearly it says here that there was a Jiang that lived in the 18th century Qianlong period.

However, as previously stated, in the earlier written (1919) Chen Family Taijiquan Pictures and Sayings book, in contradiction it states that there was a “Jiang”, who was a member of warlord Li Jiyu's uprising, who could not only run extremely fast, but was also a skilful martial artist. This Jiang later became Chen Wangting's servant. This text suggests that this Jiang was a contemporary to Chen Wangting, and lived in the 17th century. Also, in 1935 Chen Ziming in his book "Chen Family Boxing Transmitted through the Generations" included a caption for a drawing of sitting "Chen Wangting with Servant Jiang Fa" standing behind him and holding a halberd weapons. Thus, while Chen Xin may have considered the Qianlong period “Jiang” and the Ming period “Jiang Fa” to be two different persons, it seems that Chen Ziming – obviously by mistake - made them into one person, causing more of the confusion we have nowadays.

The song formula published in the Chen Family Taijiquan Pictures and Sayings book came from Du Yuanhua (1869-1938), whom Wu Tunan had met during his own investigative visit to Chen Village. Du published a book in 1935, Taiji Quan Zhengzong - Orthodox Taiji Quan. The original handwritten manual has been traced to the Zhaobao village, though it has not been made public. According to Du, as he stated in his Orthodox Taijiquan book, his art came down from someone named “Jiang Fa” who was from Kaifeng in Henan. This manual states that "Great Master teacher Jiang Fa was a native of Huaiqing, Wen County (Henan Province) and was born in the second year of Emperor Wanli of Great Ming (dynasty) [1574] and lived in Xiao Liu Village in the eastern part of the county, several li from Zhaobao Township. At the age of 22 he learnt martial arts from Great Master Wang Linzhen in Taigu, Shanxi. . . He studied for seven years. . . ”. Hence, there is obviously a mix up between two different “Jiangsu”, one associated with Chen Wangting, and one associated with Chen Changing.

There is a chapter in Du’s book called “Wudang Taijiquan Beginnings”, which indicates that Du considered his Taiji Quan as coming from the Wudang School (Peter Lim, Origin Theories article). (Note: the Wudang School mentioned here would be Zhang Sang’s Neijia Quan style.) Du stated that his form and Yang Luchan's form were the same, even bearing the same postural names like ‘Grasp Sparrow's Tail’ and the same sequence of moves. Du told him that his Taijiquan was not a family transmitted art but a teacher transmitted art. The previous generations of the art, that is the founder of his lineage, were present when Jiang Fa was teaching Chen Wangting and had also learnt the art from Jiang Fa. He then demonstrated his form to Wu Tunan and the form was the same as the Yang style of Taijiquan. (Peter Lim, Part 3: The Development of Chen Taijiquan). Thus, Du called both the Ming era person and the Qing era person as “Jiang Fa”; while Chen Xin called one only “Jiang” and the other “Jiang Fa”.

It was Chen Xin that had introduced Wu Tunan to Du Yuanhua. Du was a student of Ren Changchun, who was a student of Chen Qing ping (1795-1868), and was the source for a song formula found at the back of Chen Xin's book that had attributed Jiang Fa’s teacher to be from Shanxi, which people assumed to be Wang Zongyue. Evidence shows that the story of Jiang Fa was added after Chen Xin’s book was finished, in a forced deal to get the book published, in 1928, some months after his death. At least three other people added to Chen Xin’s book before it was finally published. It is important to note that this situation happened because the Wu and Yang Taiji Quan styles were very popular at the time and Chen Taiji Quan was still relatively new to the general public.

Also, Wu Yuxiang (after learning from Chen Qing ping in Shaba village) had spread the idea that a Jiang Fa had taught Chen Changxing the ’13 Postures’ art. Wu Yuxiang studied from Yang Luchan at the beginning and then went to the Chen Village to study from Chen Changxing. Changxing was at an advanced age and did not teach any more. Chen Changxing's son, Chen Gongyun, was a guard outside of the Chen Village. He then referred Wu Yuxiang to study from Chen Qingping in the Zhaobao Village. Zhaobao village style Chen Taiji thus became known to the outside world through Wu Yuxiang.

Chen Qingping (1795-1868, 15th generation) was married to Zhaobao Village at the age of 19. This is a special case because he was married to his wife instead of his wife married to him. This means that his wife's family had no male children and they paid a lot of money to make a man come to the woman's house. So he taught in the Zhaobao Village and started a Taiji lineage there. Chen Taiji Quan practitioners claim that there was no Taiji there prior to his arrival.

Further confusing things, the Zhaobao Taiji Quan practitioners maintain that their art was first transmitted to their village by Jiang Fa who had once lived in the Zhaobao village. They place the date for Jiang Fa existing in the mid-1500s years of the Ming Dynasty. The Zhaobao quanpu manuals state that Jiang Fa also taught Xing Xikui, who was in Zhaobao village (influencing what became known as Zhaobao Tai Ji Quan). His teachings were passed on there generation by generation, until Zhang Yan taught it to 17th generation Chen Qingping (1795-1868) in Zhaobao. (Interestingly, in the northern part of Shanxi province there exists a Gui Chezuan martial art, a rare style. The style was also said to be created or taught by Jiang Fa of Henan Province.)
(Note: It is known that 14th generation member Chen Changxing (陈长兴), 1771-1853, credited with the creation of the "Old Frame" Chen style, was the teacher of Yang Luchan (thereby influencing the creation of Yang style Taiji Quan). Also it is know that Chen Qingping taught Jiang’s ‘13 postures’ material to his own local disciples and later also to Yang Luchan’s student Wu Yuxiang (thereby influencing what became known as Wu style Tai Ji Quan). All of Chen Qingping’s disciples seem to have re-created their own sets, and the original ‘13 postures’ set from Jiang Fa is unfortunately now lost.)

3l. Who was Ming era Jiang’s and Qing era Jiang Fa’s Teacher?
According to what is stated in the various Tongbei quanpu manuals, Dong Bingqian’s teacher, Dong Cheng, had exchanged skills with a Wang Zongyue. At a later point in his life, Dong introduced Dong Bingqian and fellow Qianzai Temple priest Bogong Wutao to his Taoist Neijia Quan teacher, someone named Wang Zongyue (王宗嶽), suggesting that they too should study the ‘13 Postures of Zhang Sanfeng’ from Wang. (It is interesting to note that Wang Zongxue’s name means ‘Wang descended from Mountain’, which is perhaps a pseudonym.)
According to an interview (by Yuan Quan Fu) with Li Libing (李立炳), of the present eighteenth generation of the Li family, Wang Zongyue came from Shanxi, and lived in the Tang village as a schoolteacher for five or six years. There, Wang studied martial arts with Li Helin, who was born in 1721, the twelfth generation of the Li Family. According to Li Libing, Li Helin was not only a good pugilist but also a good businessman, he had a few business establishments, one of them was a salt store in Wuyang County (舞陽縣) attended by his son Li Yongda (李永達). Could this be the famous “salt store” where the Salt Shop Manual (鹽店譜) containing the Tai Ji Quan Treatise - Tai Ji Quan Lun (太極拳論), attributed to the legendary Wang Zongyue, was discovered? The text was said to have been found stored in the back room of a Beijing salt shop by Wu Yuxiang's brother Wu Chengching (武澄清).
In 1793, at Li Helin’s seventy-second birthday celebration, Wang was said to have presented an inscribed plaque with four gilded characters ‘Wuyuan Jiedi’ - “Your Highness Martial Excellence” (武元傑第), signed below as mendi Wang Zongyue - “Your Modest Disciple Wang Zongyue” (門弟王宗嶽), dated with the year. Yuan also claims that most of the elder villagers had seen the inscribed board before the time of the Cultural Revolution. The board was taken down from the entrance gate of Li Helin’s old house and burned in the 1960s during the Cultural Revolution turmoil (Yuan Quanfu).

Tang Hao in 1930 found a spear manuscript in Beijing bound together with Wang Zongyue's Taijiquan Classic; the Yinfu Spear Manual contained a preface (written by somebody else) with biographical information about a "Mister Wang from Shanxi" (author of the "Manual", expert in sword and spear techniques). The preface of the Yin Fu Spear Manual states that in his old age, this Wang was a school teacher with his own private school in Luoyang in 1791 and was also active in Kaifeng in 1795 and was still alive in 1796. Tang jumped to the conclusion that this "Mr. Wang" must have been Wang Zongyue. Closer analysis of both texts (as done by Xu Zhen and Wu Wenhan) shows, that they were not written by the same person and Wang Zongyue (supposed author of the Taijiquan Classic) is not necessarily "Mister Wang from Shanxi" (author of the Yinfu Spear Manual). For this reason the biography of "Mister Wang from Shanxi" is of course not necessarily that of Wang Zongyue. Which would put into question Li Libing’s accounting of Wang Zongyue as well, which seems to follow this book’s timeline for Wang’s life.
NOTE: Both Li Libing’s and Tang Hao’s account would place Wang living at a later date (the mid-1700s) than what the Tongbei Quanpu manuals do, which place Wang living during Dong Cheng’s and Dong Bingqian’s time period (late 1500s-early 1600s), which includes Chen Wangting’s time period as well. Notice that this also would imply that there is a discrepancy with Jiang Fa’s time period (since every mention of Jiang Fa says he was a student of Wang). Or, it implies that in reality there are two different Wang and Jiang people.

For a long time many researchers have disputed the actual identity or even the existence of Wang Zongyue. Many say that there must have been two different people called Wang and two different people called Jiang, living about 100 hundred years apart. The LATER ADDED song formula (provided by Du) at the very back of Chen Xin's book indicates that Jiang Fa's teacher was from Shanxi, which people assume was Wang “Zongyue” (because of Tang Hao jumping to conclusions again and declaring that the author of the spear manual was this Wang), and the contents of the song formula is almost virtually identical to the Taijiquan Treatise (Taijiquan Lun), which is attributed to Wu Yuxiang (either as compiler or writer), who learned in Zhaobao village and would have learned about the 1500s Wang “Lingzhen”. This is to differentiate it from the Taijiquan Classic book that is attributed to Wang Zongyue that was found in the salt store (which follows Li Libing’s account of the 1700s Wang Zongyue).

As previously mentioned, Chen Xin also wrote about the relationship between Chen Wangting and someone named Jiang (from whom he has only learned the ‘13 Postures Soft Hands’ from Wang (Lingzhen); as neither Jiang nor Wang practiced Dong’s Tongbei Quan). According to Dr. Yan Zhiyuan, in 1990, another of Chen Xin's hand written Chen village quanpu manuals was accidently found, it was full of Tongbei set names and a Wang Bo Qiang (Liuhe spear) set. One of the most interesting things about the find is that Chen Xin was questioning himself about why his village traditionally says that Chen Wangting learned from someone named “Jiang”, and that this Jiang learned from ‘Wang Zongyue’. This confused him, since he didn't believe that, because all the quanpu handed down from Chen Wangting consisted mostly of Tongbei sets. According to what he had heard, he had thought that Chen “Taiji Quan” arose from Chen Changxing’s lessons from Jiang Fa, whose teacher was “Wang from Shanxi”. Thus, it again seems that there are two different Jiangs being confused by these people.

Says Dr. Yan: “But amazingly, he wrote down Wang Zongyue's hometown's address from what he heard from his ancestors, I checked the place and amazingly found Wang Zongyue's descendents and japu--family tree book, Wang Zongyue was their 7th generation. During an earlier study of Taiji Quan’s history, I quoted from Du Yuanhua’s book ‘Orthodox Taiji,’ which said that Jiang Fa’s teacher Old Wang was from Taigu in Shanxi. I also made use of Zhaobao Taiji practitioner Zhang Jingzhi’s writings, which were passed down to Yang Bangtai and then to Huan Dahai, stating that Jiang Fa’s teacher was “Wang Zongyue from Shanxi, Seven-Mile Village in Jinyang.” Although I quoted these sources, in my heart I was not fully convinced that they were reliable. Jinyang is modern-day Taiyuan; no matter whether in Jinyang or in Taigu, in my research in Shanxi I was unable to discover ‘Seven-Mile Village’ (Qili Bao). Moreover, Taiyuan and Taigu are very far away from Bo’ai County in Henan (originally Henei County) and Zhaobao Village in Wen County. If Wang Zongyue was a traveling merchant from Shanxi (in pre-modern times, Shanxi was called Shanyou (Right of the mountains) and Shandong, to the east of the Taihang mountains, was called Shanzuo (Left of the mountains)), to travel from the Taiyuan or Taigu areas to Henan seems like a very long journey. All along I was suspicious of this information. I never expected that I would find the solution in Chen Xin’s book! In Chen Xin’s manuscript, between the ‘Explanation of Spear and Pole’ and the ‘Four Sets of Hammers’, is the chapter ‘On Differences in Boxing’. This short piece was an incredibly important record. Quickly consulting some reference works, I found that the Qing dynasty Fenchuan Prefecture is modern-day Xiangfen County, Hefen County, and Yicheng County (in Shanxi). In Yicheng County there is a Wang Village which in the Qing was known as Lesser Wang Village. Lesser Wang Village was old Wang Zongyue’s hometown! From Wang Village to Yangcheng County in Shanxi and the border with Bo’ai County in Henan it is just a short distance. If Wang Zongyue were to go to Henan on business, this would be the only possible route. Because of this, it is perfectly reasonable to suspect that Wang passed by Qianzai Temple, where he passed on his “13 Soft hands” to the Taoist Dong Bingqian. He also passed through Zhaobao Village, only 40 km from Bo’ai (there was a Shanxi Hall there in pre-modern times), where he encountered Jiang Fa, mourning his parents’ death, and took Jiang Fa with him back to Wang Village in Shanxi where he taught him the ‘13 Postures Boxing’.”

Again, there seems to be a mix up here of two different Wang’s from two different time periods, because the dates do not match up. According to the above account, this Wang would be the 1700s one, whose student Jiang Fa taught Chen Changxing, not the 1500s Wang, who taught Dong Cheng and whose student Jiang taught Chen Wangting. Logically, there can’t be one Wang and one Jiang, since there are two conflicting time periods that Chen Wangting and Chen Changxing were from. This information may place “where” this particular Wang Zongyue was from, but it does not place “when” this Wang person was from, which appears that this Wang from “Lesser Wang Village” is the 1700s Wang “Zongyue”. As such he cannot logically be the Wang that helped to create Zhaobao Taiji Quan through his student Jiang AND who also taught Chen Wangting.

Nor does it clarify if there was more than one person named Wang and Jiang or not. In looking over all these points, and taking into account the new information found in both the Li family genealogy papers and the various Tongbei quanpu that have been found dating from the 1600 and 1700s, it seems that different people from different times surnamed Wang and Jiang are being conflated together. Most of the evidence points to a Wang (whom Du names as Wang Lingzhen) from Shanxi that was a teacher of the Taoist ‘13 Postures’ material being from the Ming Dynasty era, and who taught it to priest Dong Cheng. Later he taught Qianzai priests Dong Bingqian and Bo Gong Wutao, and someone named Jiang (full name not known, but there is evidence that shows he was from an anti-Qing rebellion, Li Jiyu's uprising, and Chen Wangting kept his identity quiet), and all these people taught it to 9th generation Chen Wangting during the mid 1600s of the Ming era.

Other evidence (IF it is accurate) shows that about 100 years later, during the early 1700s of the Qing era, 14th generation Chen Changxing learned Taoist martial arts from someone named Jiang Fa, who’s teacher was also someone called “Wang from Shanxi”. More than likely this Wang was Wang Zongyue. This person may have written the Taiji Quan manual that was found in the salt store. Wu Yuxiang's brother, Deng Qing, discovered this Taijiquan Classic in a salt store in the province he was governing.

This salt store was more than likely the one owned by Li family Taiji Quan martial artist Li Helin in the 1700s, otherwise why would a Taiji Quan manual ever be found in a salt store? The odds of this happening must be astronomical. Plus, that would explain the use of the term “Taiji Quan” in the book’s title, since it would have been written in the 1700s, when Taiji Quan was already heard of, rather than in Chen Wangting’s time, when the art was NOT called “Taiji Quan” yet and had not left the Chen and Tang villages yet nor was taught outside of their families yet nor did was it composed of the same material.

Dr. Ceng Chaojan has examined the Taiji lineage, and has traced the Taijiquanjing to a nineteenth century author, Wu Heqing. He contends that Wu attributed the book to Wang Zongyue, the famous boxing master, to lend it more credibility. Hong Junsheng read a handwritten copy (supposed to be original) of the Wu Yuxiang book when he was in Beijing in the early 1930s. He said it was full of errors, the kind of misuse of words (same sound but different meaning) that he felt the book must be written by someone who did not actually practice Taiji Quan.

3m. Yang Luchan Connection
Later Yang Luchan during interactions with Wu Yuxiang further developed the 13 Postures aspect of the style and deemphasized some of the other aspects. When he was young, Yang Luchan studied a Hong Quan style that was popular in his village of Yong Nien. Yang Luchan’s main set, the Long Form, is done differently than the Chen Long set, the Yi Lu. Yang’s shows a Shaolin Hong Quan influence, sharing many common postures and movements, even though it basically follows the same sequence as the Chen Yi Lu. Another difference from Chen Taiji Quan is that during his years in Beijing after leaving Chen village, Yang Luchan was known for practicing a ‘Fast’ (Kuai) set that made him nearly invincible. His sons Yang Banhou and Yang Shaohou later were also renowned for practicing this set as well, which they kept a secret within their family.

Two of Yang’s students later developed their own style of Taiji Quan. One was Wu Yuxiang, who also learned Shaolin Hong Quan in Yong Nian was young. As stated previously, he later travelled towards Chen village to seek out Yang’s teacher Chen Changxing; but instead wound up in Zhaobao Village learning from Chen Chingping. The other was Wu Jian Quan's and his father Quan Yu (1834-1902), who developed a version of a small frame style of Yang Taiji Quan that was taught in the Qing Imperial Court; his lineage retained Yang Luchan’s Fast set. According to Dr. Yan in his correspondence and articles, this fast form was originally the ‘13 Posture Soft Hands’; this idea comes from examining three resources in which the names of the movements were independently recorded apart from Chen's and Yang's records. These are:
the quanpu found during the late Qing era by Wu Yuxiang's brother in a salt shop, from Wuyang, Henan;
a quanpu found by Tang Hao in the early 1930's in a glass factory from Beijing; and
an old early Qing era quanpu found recently in 2002 in Tang village, where the Li family has been living (even though these Li descendents no longer practice their family Taiji Quan style.
These three quanpu are from three different sources and from three different eras. All three recorded the Taoist original ‘13 postures’ movement names. The movement names in these three quanpu are nearly the same; also they are the same as the names of what Wu Quanyou learned from Yang Luchan and Yang Banhou, which they called their ‘Fast Form’.


The following is a comparison of posture lists from various sources.

The 32 Postures from General Qi's Book, Ji Xiao Xin Shu:

1. Lan Za Yi - Lazily Arranging Clothes
2. Jin Ji Du Li - Golden Chicken Independently Stands
3. Tan Ma – Control (Pat) Horse (more accurately translated as “Spy” Technique)
4. Ao Dan Bian – Bending Single Whip
5. Qi Xing Quan - Seven-Star Fist
6. Dao Qi Long - Repulse Riding Dragon
7. Xuan Jiao - Hang (Sweep) Leg
8. Qiu Liu Shi - ‘Hill Fairy’ (Flowing/ Destroying) Stance
9. Xia Cha Shi - Lower Piercing Stance
10. Mai Pu - Ambush Stance
11. Pao Jia – Pulling Frame
12. Nian Zou Shi - Brace Elbow Stance
13. Yi Bu – Escaping Step
14. Chin Na Shi- Joint lock Stance
15. Zhong Si Ping Shi - Middle Four Level Stance
16. Pu Hu Shi - Subdue the Tiger Stance
17. Gao Si Ping Shi –High Four Level Stance
18. Dao Zha Shi - Repulse Piercing Stance
19. Jing Lan Si Ping - Well (Trapping) Blocking Four Levels
20. Gui Cu Jiao - Ghost Stomping Foot
21. Zhi Dang Shi - Pointing at Crotch (Pubic region)
22. Shou Tuo Shi - Animal Head Stance
23. Shen Quan Dang Tao Zha Xia - Spirit (Lively) Fist Overhead Pierces Down
24. Yi Shu Bian - Single Sudden Whip
25. Giao Di Long Xia Pan Jiao - Sparrow Ground Dragon Lower Spreading Foot
26. Zhao Yang Shi - Rising Sun Stance
27. Yan Qi Ce Shen - Goose Wings Sideways Body
28. Kua Hu Shi – Riding Tiger Stance
29. Ao Luan Zhou - Bend Phoenix Elbow
30. Dang Tuo Pao - Overhead Cannon
31. Shun Luan Zhou – Smooth (flowing/following) Phoenix Elbow
32. Qi Gu Shi - Flag and Drum Stance.


After Tong Bei founder Dong Cheng met Wang Zongyue, Dong also created his own Rou Quan (Soft Boxing):
白猿仙通背柔拳四十九势名 – Bai Yuan Xian Tong Bei Rou Quan Si Shi Jiu Shiming - White Ape Immortal Tong Bei Rou Quan 49 Patterns Names

1、左右推山 - Zuo You Tui Shan - Left Right Push Mountain
2、金刚墜 - Jin Gang Zhui - Jin Gang Drop
3、攬扎衣 - Lan Za Yi - Seize Bind Clothes
4、如封似避 - Ru Feng Si Bi - As if Sealing like Avoiding
5、单鞭 - Dan Bian - Single Whip

6、單风贯耳 - Dan Feng Quan Er - Single Wind Pierces Ear
7、白鹤亮翅 - Bai He' Liang Qi - White Crane Shows Wings
8、金絲纏鉴 - Jin Si Chan Jian - Golden Silk Wraps/coils Mirror
9、斜行 - Xie Hang - Slanting Row
10、单震脚 Dan Zhen Jiao - Single Shake Foot

11、掩手弘拳 – Yan Shou Hong Quan – Covering Hand Great Fist
12、披身拳 – Pi Shen Quan – Unroll Body Fist
13、對心肘 – Dui Xin Zhou – Oppose Heart Elbow
14、肘底看锤 – Zhou Di Kan Chui – Elbow base Guarding Hammer
15、倒撵猴 – Dao Nian Hou – Pour-out Expel Monkey
16、退步独立 – Tui Bu Du Li – Retreating Step Independently Stand
17、金雞独立 – Jin Ji Du Li – Golden Rooster Independently Stands
18、肩肘靠 – Jian Zhou Kao – Shoulder Elbow Lean/Support

19、腿步捋手 – Tui Bu Lu/Luo Shou – Leg Step Stroking/Stripping Hand
20、白蛇吐芯 – Bai Shi Tu Xin - White Snake Spits Pith
21、大背靠 – Da Bei Kao – Big Back Lean
22、騎馬問路 – Qi Ma Wen Lu – Ride Horse Ask Way
23、順水推舟 – Shun Shui Tui Zhou – Follow River Push Boat
24、云手 – Yun Shou – Cloud Hands

25、斜插一枝花 – Xie Zha Yi Zhi Hua – Slanting Piercing One Branch Flower
26、探馬势 – Tan Ma Shi – Explore Horse Pattern
27、十字手 - Shi-zi Shou - Cross Shape Hands
28、右拍脚 – You Pai Jiao – Right Clapping Foot
29、左拍脚 - Zuo Pai Jiao – Left Clapping Foot
30、转身蹬一脚 – Zhuan Shen Deng Yi Jiao – Turn Body Step into One Foot
31、前冲后冲 – Qian Zhong Hou Zhong – Front Dash Rear Dash

32、栽手炮- Zai Shou Pao - Planting Hand Cannon
33、二起脚 – Er Qi Jiao – Two Raising Feet
34、護心拳 – Hu Xin Quan - Protect Heart Fist
35、左右擦脚 – Zuo You Ca Jiao - Left Right Rubbing Foot
36、雙风貫耳 – Shuang Feng Quan Ear – Double Wind Piercing Ear

37、金雞曬膀 – Jin Ji Shai Bang – Golden Rooster Suns Wing
38、三環手 – San Huan Shou – Three Ringed Hands
39、野馬分鬃 – Ye Ma Fen Zong – Wild Horse Parts Mane
40、擺蓮脚 – Bai Lian Jiao – Swing Lotus Foot
41、凤凰展翅 – Feng-Huang Zhan Qi – Phoenix Spreads Wings

42、小開門 – Shao Kai Men – Small Open Door
43、腦后锤 – Nao Hou Chui – Brain Rear Hammer
44、双震脚 - Shuang Zhen Jiao – Double Shaking Foot
45、玉女穿梭 – Yu Nu Chuan Suo – Jade Lady Threads Shuttle
46、十字脚 – Shi-Zi Jiao - Cross shape Feet
47、指襠锤 – Zhi Dang Chui – Point Crotch Hammer
48、上步七星、退步跨虎 - Shang Bu Qi Xing, Tui Bu Kua Hu – Forward Step Seven Stars, Retreat Step Ride Tiger
49、當头炮 – Dang Tou Pao – Obstruct Head Cannon, 收势. - Closing Position.



厂本 “十三势目” Chang Ben (Original) - 13 Shi Mu (13 Postures contents):

攬雀尾 - Lan Que Wei (Seize Bird Tail)
單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
提手 - Ti Shou (Lifting Hands)
上勢 - Shang Shi (Forward Position)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He Liang Qi (White Crane Shows Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
手揮琵琶 - Shou Hui Pi Pa (Hands Wipe Guitar)
進步搬攔捶 - Jin Bu Ban Lan Chui (Advance Step, Swing Block/Cut off Hammer)
如封似閉 - Ru Feng Si Bi (As if Sealing like Closing)
抱虎推山 - Bao Hu Tui Shan (Embrace Tiger Push Mountain)

攬 雀尾 - Lan Que Wei (Seize Bird Tail)
肘底看捶 - Zhou Di Kan Chui (Elbow base Guarding Hammer)
倒攆猴 - Dao Nian Hou (Pour Out Expel Monkey)
斜飛式 - Xie Fei Shi (Slanting Flying pattern)
提手 - Ti Shou (Lifting Hands)
上勢 - Shang Shi (Forward Position)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He Liang Qi (White Crane Shows Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
海底針 - Hai Di Zhen (Ocean Bottom Needle)
扇通背 - Shan Tong Bei (Flash through back)
撇身捶 - Pie Shen Chui (Throw Body Hammer)
卸步搬攔捶 - Xie Bu Ban Lan Chui (Unload Step Swing Block/Cut off Hammer)

上势攬雀尾 - Shang Bu Lan Que Wei (Forward step Seize Bird Tail)
單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
高探馬 - Gao Tan Ma (High Explore Horse)
左右分腳 - Zou You Fen Jiao (Left Right Dividing Foot)
轉身蹬腳 - Zhuan Shen Deng Jiao (Turn Body Step into Foot)
進步栽捶 - Jin Bu Zai Chui (Advance Step Planting Hammer)
翻身撇身捶 - Fan Shen Pie Shen Chui (Turnover Body Throw Body Hammer)
反身二起腳 - Fan Shen Er Qi Jiao (Up Body Two Lifting Feet)
上步挫捶 - Shang Bu Cuo Chui (Forward Step Bend Hammer)
雙峰貫耳 - Shuang Feng Guan Er (Double Peak Pierce Ears)
披身 踢腳 - Pi Shen Ti Yi Jiao (Unroll body kick foot)
轉身蹬腳 - Zhuan Shen Deng Jiao (Turn Body Step into Foot)
斜單鞭 - Xie Dan Bian (Slanting Single Whip)
野馬分鬃 - Ye Ma Fen Zong (Wild Horse Parts Mane)
玉女穿梭 - Yu Nu Chuan Suo (Jade Lady Threads Shuttles)

單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
上勢 - Shang Shi (Forward Position)
金雞獨立 - Jin Ji Du Li (Golden Chicken Independently Stands)
倒攆猴 - Dao Nian Hou (Pour Out Expel Monkey)
斜飛式 - Xie Fei Shi (Slanting Flying pattern)
提手 - Ti Shou (Lifting Hands)
上勢 - Forward Shi (Forward Position)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He' Liang Qi (White Crane Shows Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
海底針 - Hai Di Zhen (Ocean Bottom Needle)
扇通背 - Shan Tong Bei (Flash through back)
上势攬雀尾 - Shang Bu Lan Que Wei (Forward step Seize Bird Tail)

單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
高探馬 - Gao Tan Ma (High Explore Horse)
十字擺蓮 - Shi-zi Bai Lian (Cross-shape Swing Lotus)
摟膝指襠捶 - Lou Xie Zhi Dang Chui (Brush Knee point crotch hammer)
上势攬雀尾 - Shang Bu Lan Que Wei (Forward step Seize Bird Tail)

單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
上勢 - Shang Shi (Forward Position)
上步七星 - Shang Bu Qi Xing (Forward step Seven Star)
退步跨虎 - Tui Bu Kua Hu (Retreat Step Ride Tiger)
轉脚擺蓮 - Zhuan Jiao Bai Lian (Turn Foot Swing Lotus)
彎弓射虎 - Wan Gong She Hu (Bend Bow Shoot Tiger)
上势攬雀尾 - Shang Bu Lan Que Wei (Forward step Seize Bird Tail)
合太極 - He Tai Ji (Join Tai Ji).



Li family (from Tang village) - Thirteen Postures 谱 “十三势目”:

起势 - Opening position
攬雀尾 - Lan Que Wei (Seize Bird Tail)
單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
提手- Ti Shou (Lifting Hands)
上勢 - Shang Shi (Forward Posture)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He' Liang Qi (White Crane Shows Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
手揮琵琶 - Shou Hui Pi Pa (Hands Wipe Guitar)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
手揮琵琶 - Shou Hui Pi Pa (Hands Wipe Guitar)
搬攔捶 - Ban Lan Chui (Swing Block / Cut off Hammer)
如封似閉 - Ru Feng Si Bi (As if Sealing like Closing)
抱虎推山 - Bao Hu Tui Shan (Embrace Tiger Push Mountain)

單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
肘底看捶 - Zhou Di Kan Chui (Elbow base Guarding Hammer)
倒攆猴 - Dao Nian Hou (Pour Out Expel Monkey)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He' Liang Qi (White Crane Shows Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
扇通背 - Shan Tong Bei (Fan through Back/Shoulder)

單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
高探馬 - Gao Tan Ma (High Explore Horse)
左右起腳 - Zou You Qi Jiao (Left Right Rising Feet)
轉身蹬一腳 - Zhuan Shen Deng Yi Jiao (Turn Body Step into Single Foot)
践步打捶 - Jian Bu da Chui (Walk Step Striking Hammer)
翻身二起 - Fan Shen Er Qi (Turnover body Double Lift)
披身 踢一腳 - Pi Shen Ti Yi Jiao (Unroll body kick single foot)
蹬一腳 - Deng Yi Jiao (Step into One Foot)
上步搬攔捶 - Shang Bu Ban Lan Chui (Forward Step Swing Block / Cut off Hammer)
如封似閉 - Ru Feng Si Bi (As if Sealing like Closing)
抱虎推山 - Bao Hu Tui Shan (Embrace Tiger Push Mountain)

斜單鞭 - Xie Dan Bian (Slanting Single Whip)
野馬分鬃 - Ye Ma Fen Zong (Wild Horse Parts Mane)
單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
玉女穿梭 - Yu Nu Chuan Suo (Jade Lady Threads Shuttles)

單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
下勢 - Xia Shi (Lower Posture)
更雞獨立 - Geng Ji Du Li (Changing Chicken Independently Stands)
倒攆猴 - Dao Nian Hou (Pour Out Expel Monkey)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He Liang Qi (White Crane Spread Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
扇通背 - Shan Tong Bei (Fan Through Back/Shoulder)
上势攬雀尾 - Shang Shi Lan Que Wei (Forward Posture Seize Bird Tail)

單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
高探馬 - Gao Tan Ma (High Explore Horse)
十字擺蓮 - Shi-zi Bai Lian (Cross-shape Swing Lotus)
上步指襠捶 - Shang Bu Zhi Dang Chui (Forward step point crotch hammer)

上势攬雀尾 - Shang Shi Lan Que Wei (Forward Posture Seize Bird Tail)
單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
下上步七星 - Xia Bu Qi Xing (Backward ward Step Seven Stars)
退步跨虎 - Tui Bu Kua Hu (Retreat Step Ride Tiger)
轉脚擺蓮 - Zhuan Jiao Bai Lian (Turn Foot Swing Lotus)
彎弓射虎 - Wan Gong She Hu (Bend Bow Shoot Tiger)
上势攬雀尾 - Shang Shi Lan Que Wei (Forward Posture Seize Bird Tail)
双抱捶 - Shuang Bao Chui (Double Embrace Hammers).



CHEN Thirteen postures soft hands (created by Chen Youben):

懒插衣 - Lan Cha Yi (Lazily Insert Clothes)
单鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
护心拳 - Pu Xin Quan (Protect Heart Fist)
前堂拗步 - Qian Zhang Ao Bu (Front Palm Twist Step)
庇 身打一锤 - Bi Shen Da Yi Chui (Cover Body Strike Single Hammer)
出身喝一声 - Chu Shen He Sheng (Exit Body Shout single voice)
朝阳肘 - Chao Yang Zhou (Rising Sun Elbow)
一脚 - Yi Jiao (Single Foot)
倒卷红 - Dao Juan Hong (Reverse/ Topple Coil Red)

六封四闭 - Liu Feng Si Bi (Six Sealing Four Closing)
拗步闪通背 - Ao Bu Shan Tong Bei (Twist Step Flash Through Back)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
抱头推山 - Bao Tou Tui Shan (Embrace Head Push Mountain)
高探马 - Gao Tan Ma (High Explore Horse)
左右插脚 - Zuo You Cha Jiao (Left Right Inserting Foot)
中单鞭 - Zhong Dan Bian (Middle Single Whip)
铺地锦 - Pu Di Jin (Spread Earth Brocade)
二起 - Er Qi (Double Lift)
跟子 - Gen Zhi (Follow shape)
演手 - Yan Shou (Playing hands)
噙拳噙手 - Qin Quan Qin Shou (hold in mouth fist hold in mouth hand)

六封四闭 - Liu Feng Si Bi (Six Sealing Four Closing)
前照 - Qian Zhao (front show)
后照 - Hou Zhao (back show)
野马分鬃 - Ye Ma Fen Zong (Wild Horse Parts Mane)
一堂蛇 - Yi Zhang Shi (One Palm Snake)
金鸡独立 - Jin Ji Du Li (Golden Chicken Independently Stands)
倒卷红 - Dao Juan Hong (Pour Out Coil Red)

六封四闭 - Liu Feng Si Bi (Six Sealing Four Closing)
拗步 - Ao Bu (Bend Step)
通背 - Tong Bei (Through Back)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
抱头推山 - Bao Tou Tui Shan (Embrace Head Push Mountain)
高探马 - Gao Tan Ma (High Explore Horse)
十字脚 - Shi-zhi Jiao (Cross Shape Foot)
猿猴看果 - Yuan Hou Kan Guo (Ape Monkey Guards Fruit)
单鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
七星 - Qi Xing (Seven Star)
挎虎 - Kua Hu (Ride Tiger)
拗步 - Ao Bu (Bend Step)
当头炮 - Dang Tuo Bao (Obstruct Head Embrace)
附:吳式太極拳快架譜(十三势拳谱)-



Wu Shi Tai Ji Quan Kuai Jia Pu - Shi San Shi Quanpu
(Wu Style TJQ Fast Frame Chart -13 Posture Fist Chart)

起 勢 - Opening position
攬雀尾 - Lan Que Wei (Seize Bird Tail)
單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
提手 - Ti Shou (Lifting Hands)
上勢 - Shang Shi (Forward position)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He' Liang Qi (White Crane Shows Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
手揮琵琶 - Shou Hui Pi Pa (Hands Wipe Guitar)
進步搬攔捶 - Jin Bu Ban Lan Chui (Advance Step Move Block / Cut off Hammer)
如封似閉 - Ru Feng Si Bi (As if Sealing like Closing)
抱虎推山 - Bao Hu Tui Shan (Embrace Tiger Push Mountain)
十字手 - Shi-Zhi Shou (Cross shape Hands)
斜摟膝拗步 - Xie Lou Xi Ao Bu (Slanting Brush Knee Twist Step)
翻身摟膝拗 - Fan Shen Xi Ao Bu (Turnover Body Brush Knee Twist)

攬雀尾 - Lan Que Wei (Seize Bird Tail)
斜單鞭 - Xie Dan Bian (Slanting Single Whip)
肘底看捶 - Zhou Di Kan Chui (Elbow base Guarding Hammer)
倒攆猴 - Dao Nian Hou (Pour out Expel Monkey)
斜飛式 - Xie Fei Shi (Slanting Flying pattern)
提手 - Ti Shou (Lifting Hands)
上勢 - Shang Shi (Forward position)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He' Liang Qi (White Crane Shows Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
海底針 - Hai Di Zhen (Ocean Bottom Pin)
扇通背 - Shan Tong Bei (Flash through Back)
翻身撇身捶 - Fan Shen Pie Shen Chui (Turnover Body Throw Body Hammer)
卸步搬攔捶 - Xie Bu Ban Lan Chui (Unload Step Move Block / Cut off Hammer)

攬雀尾 - Lan Que Wei (Seize Bird Tail)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
高探馬 - Gao Tan Ma (High Explore Horse)
左右分腳 - Zou You Fen Jiao (Left Right Dividing Foot)
轉身蹬腳 - Zhuan Shen Deng Jiao (Turn Body Step into Foot)
進步栽捶 - Jin Bu Zai Chui (Advance Step Planting Hammer)
翻身撇身捶 - Fan Shen Pie Shen Chui (Turnover Body Throw Body Hammer)
二起飛腳(二蹦子) - Er Qi Fei Jiao (Two Lifting Flying Feet)
退步打虎 - Tui Bu Da Hu (Retreat Step Strike Tiger)
右蹬腳 - You Deng Jiao (Right Step into Foot)
雙峰貫耳 - Shuang Feng Guan Er (Double Peak Pierce Ears)
披身 踢腳 - Pi Shen Ti Yi Jiao (Unroll body kick foot)
轉身蹬腳 - Zhuan Shen Deng Jiao (Turn Body Step into Foot)
進步搬攔捶 - Jin Bu Ban Lan Chui (Advance Step Move Cut off Hammer)
如封似閉 - Ru Feng Si Bi (As if Sealing like Closing)
抱虎推山 - Bao Hu Tui Shan (Embrace Tiger Push Mountain)
十字手 - Shi-Zhi Shou (Cross shape Hands)
斜摟膝拗步 - Xie Lou Xie Ao Bu (Slanting Brush Knee Twist Step)
翻身摟膝拗步 - Fan Shen

攬雀尾 - Lan Que Wei (Seize Bird Tail)
斜單鞭 - Xie Dan Bian (Slanting Single Whip)
野馬分鬃 - Ye Ma Fen Zong (Wild Horse Parts Mane)
玉女穿梭 - Yu Nu Chuan Suo (Jade Lady Threads Shuttles)
單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
下勢 - Xia Shi (Lower position)
金雞獨立 - Jin Ji Du Li (Golden Chicken Independently Stands)
倒攆猴 - Dao Nian Hou (Pour Out Expel Monkey)
斜飛勢 - Xie Fei Shi (Slanting Flying position)
提手 - Ti Shou (Lifting Hands)
上勢 - Shang Shi (Forward position)
白鶴亮翅 - Bai He' Liang Qi (White Crane Shows Wings)
摟膝拗步 - Lou Xi Au Bu (Brush Knee Twist Step)
海底針 - Hai Di Zhen (Ocean Bottom Pin)
扇通背 - Shan Tong Bei (Flash through Back)
翻身撇身捶 - Fan Shen Pie Shen Chui (Turnover Body Throw Body Hammer)
上步搬攔捶 - Shang Bu Ban Lan Chui (Forward Step Move Block / Cut off Hammer)

上势攬雀尾 - Shang Bu Lan Que Wei (Forward step Seize Bird Tail)
單鞭 - Dan Bian (Single Whip)
云手 - Yun Shou (Cloud Hands)
高探馬 - Gao Tan Ma (High Explore Horse)
十字擺蓮腳 - Shi-zi Bai Lian Jiao (Cross-shape Swing Lotus Foot)
摟膝指襠捶 - Lou Xie Zhi Dang Chui(Brush Knee point crotch hammer)

上势攬雀尾 - Shang Bu Lan Que Wei (Forward step Seize Bird Tail)
下勢 - Xia Shi (Lower position)
上步七星 - Shang Bu Qi Xing (Forward step Seven Star)
(又名上步騎鯨) - Shang Bu Qi Jing (Same time Forward Step Stride Whale)
退步跨虎 - Tui Bu Kua Hu (Retreat Step Ride Tiger)
轉身擺蓮 - Zhuan Shen Bai Lian (Turn Body Swing Lotus)
彎弓射虎 - Wan Gong She Hu (Bend Bow Shoot Tiger)
轉脚擺蓮 - Zhuan Jiao Bai Lian (Turn Foot Swing Lotus)
迎面掌 - Ying Mian Zhang (Greet Face Palm)
翻身撇身捶 - Fan Shen Pie Shen Chui (Turnover Body Throw Body Hammer)
上步攬雀尾 - Shang Shi Lan Que Wei (Forward Position Seize Bird Tail)
合太極 - He tai Ji (Join Tai Ji).



Chen Taijiquan Laojia Yi Lu
太極起式 - Begin Taiji (Tai Ji Qi Shi)
金刚捣碓 - Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar (Jin Gang Dao Dui)
懒扎衣 - Lazily Tying Coat (Lan Zha Yi)
六封四闭 - Six Sealing and Four Closing (Liu Feng Si Bi)
單鞭 - Single Whip (Dan Bian)

金刚捣碓 - Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar (Jin Gung Dao Dui)
白鶴亮翅 - White Crane Spreads Wings (Bai He Liang Chi)
斜行 - Walking Obliquely (Xie Xing)
摟膝 - Brushing Knees (Lou Xi)
俶收 - First Retreat (Chu Shou)
拗步 - Wade Forward With Twist Steps - Qian Tang Au Bu
斜行 - Walking Obliquely (Xie Xing)
摟膝 - Brushing Knees (Lou Xi)
再收 - Second Retreat (Zai Shou)
拗步 - Wade Forward With Twist Steps - Qian Tang Au Bu
掩手肱拳 – Cover Hand Thrust Punch (Yan Shou Hong Quan)

金刚捣碓 - Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar (Jin Gung Dao Dui)
撇身捶 – Drape Over Body Hammer (Pi Shen Chui)
揹折尻 – Bei Zhe Kao (Back Bend Lean)
青龙出水 - Green Dragon Emerges from Water (Qin Lung Chu Shui)
雙手推掌 - Double Pushing Hands (Shuang Tui Shou)
三換掌 - San Huan Zhang – Three Changing Hands
肘底看捶 - Observe Fist Under Elbow (Zhou Di Kan Quan)
倒卷肱 – “Step Back and Whirl” (Pour out Coil) Arms (Dao Juan Hong)
捺肘 - Capture Elbow (Na Zhou)
白鶴亮翅 - White Crane Spreads Wings (Bai He Liang Chi)
斜行 - Walking Obliquely (Xie Xing)
扇通背 - Flashing Turn to Back (Shan Tong Bei)
掩手肱拳 – Cover Hand Thrust Punch (Yan Shou Hong Quan)

六封四闭 - Six Sealing and Four Closing (Liu Feng Shi Bi)
單鞭 - Single Whip (Dan Bian)
上雲手 -Upper Cloud Hands (Shang Yun Shou)
左高馬 - High Patting on Horse (Gao Tan Ma)
右擦脚 - Brushing Right Foot (You Ca Jiao)
左擦腳 - Brushing Left Foot (Zuo Ca Jiao)
左轉身左蹬腿 - Kicking With the Left Heel and Following (Zuo Deng Yi Gen)
前堂拗步 – Forward Hall Side Step (Qian Tang Yao Bu)
擊地捶 - Pounding Ground Hammer (Zhi Di Quan)
二起脚 - Double Jump Kick (Ti Er Qi)
护心拳 - Protect-the-Heart Fist (Hu Xing Quan)
旋风脚 - Tornado Foot (Xuan Feng Jiao)
Kicking with the Right Heel and Following (You Deng Yi Gen)
掩手肱拳 – Cover Hand Thrust Punch (Yan Shou Hong Quan)
小擒打 - Small Capturing and Hitting (Xiao Qin Da)
抱头推山 - Embracing Head and Pushing Mountain (Bao Tou Tui Shan)

六封四闭 - Six Sealing and Four Closing (Liu Feng Si Bi)
單鞭 - Single Whip (Dan Bian)
前招 - Forward Move (Qian Zhao)
后招 - Backward Move (Hou Zhao)
野馬分鬃 - Parting the Wild Horse's Mane (Ye Ma Fen Zhong)
六封四闭 - Six Sealing and Four Closing (Liu Feng Si Bi)
單鞭 - Single Whip (Dan Bian)
退步雙震脚 – Back Step and Both Feet Stamp (Tui Bu Shuang Zhen Jiao)
玉女穿梭 - Fair Maiden (Jade Girl)Works Shuttles (Yu Nu Chuan Suo)

懒扎衣 - Lazily Tying Coat (Lan Zha Yi)
六封四闭 - Six Sealing and Four Closing (Liu Feng Si Bi)
單鞭 - Single Whip (Dan Bian)
雲手 – Middle Cloud Hands (Zhong Yun Shou)
雙摆莲脚 - Double White Lotus (Shuang Bai Lian)
擺腳, 跌叉 - Shake Foot and Fall into Split (Die Jiao Da Cha)
金雞獨立 - Golden Rooster Independently Stands (Jin Ji Du Li)
倒卷肱 – “Stepping Back and Wrapping” Upper Arms (Dao Juan Hong)
白鶴亮翅 - White Crane Spreads Wings (Bai He Liang Chi)
斜行 - Walking Obliquely (Xie Xing)
扇通背 - Flashing Turn to Back (Shan Tong Bei)
掩手肱拳 – Cover Hand Thrust Punch (Yan Shou Hong Quan)
捺肘 - Capture Elbow (Na Zhou)
顺拦肘 - Smooth Block with Elbow (Shun Lan Zhou)

六封四闭 - Six Sealing and Four Closing (Liu Feng Si Bi)
單鞭 - Single Whip (Dan Bian)
雲手 – Cloud Hands (Yun Shou)
高探馬 - High Patting on Horse (Gao Tan Ma)
十字摆莲脚 - Crossed Feet Lotus Kick (Shi Zhi Jiao)
指裆捶 - Punch Groin Hammer (Zhi Dang Chui)
猿猴献果 - Ape-Monkey Presents Fruit (Yuan Hou Xian Guo)
單鞭 - Single Whip (Dan Bian)
雀地龙 - Sparrow Earth Dragon (Que Di Long)
上步七星 - Stepping Forward to Form the Seven Stars (Shang Bu Qi Xing)
退步跨虎 - Stepping Back to Ride the Tiger (Xia Bu Kua Hu)
翻身, 摆擺蓮 - Turn Body and Wave Double Lotus (Zhuan Shen Shuang Bai Lian)
当头炮 - Overhead Cannon (Dang Tou Pao)
金刚捣碓 - Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar (Jing Gang Dao Dui)
收式 - Close Taiji Form (Tai Ji Shou Si).

Summary
The Tongbei Quan style developed by Dong Cheng at the Qianzai Temple was a direct root influence on the founding of both Chen Taiji Quan and of Xinyi Liuhe Quan. Hence, the inherent overlap of theoretical concepts and physical techniques between Xinyi Quan and Chen Taiji Quan.

Chen Wangting and his Li family cousins developed four sets of Tongbei, which served as part of the foundation of the actual Chen Taiji Quan that was to develop much later amongst the later generations, who merged this Tongbei Quan, the Taoist 13 Postures, and most obviously with various Shaolin routines (such as Xiexing Quan, Jingang Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, Pao Chui, and Taizu Chang Quan) into what became eventually known as Chen Taiji Quan.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Quigga on Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:28 am

I bought your book some time ago and honestly it was quite overwhelming for someone with little knowledge about IMA or Tai Chi history. What book would be a good place to start with in your opinion?

Graham, I appreciate your podcasts, they're always nice to have when stretching.
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:45 am

Cool! I think we want to draw a line under Tai Chi in the podcasts for a while - we've solved that one for everybody now and the issue is completely resolved ;D ;D ;D

We want to get back to esoteric subjects for a bit - it's the turn of Hermeticism next. If you want a head start on the next one then start reading Poemander now. You can find it online. I'd really like to get back to the Chymical Wedding one day - really enjoyed our series on day 1.

Image

if you're not into that stuff then our Xing Yi series goes deep on Chinese history as does the Han Dynasty series and some ideas:

The Mongols:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/2 ... he-mongols

Mithraism vs Christianty:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/1 ... ity-part-1

Xing Yi:

https://thetaichinotebook.com/the-history-of-xing-yi/
Last edited by GrahamB on Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
The NHS is not drained by migrants, but sustained by them.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:00 am

GrahamB wrote:Sal,

It does fit perfectly with the Mao Communist idea though - everything has to be the same.

.

The Reformation of boxing- Marquess of Queensberry ,
. The new rules at first were scorned by professionals, who considered them unmanly,
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:50 am

Quigga wrote:I bought your book some time ago and honestly it was quite overwhelming for someone with little knowledge about IMA or Tai Chi history. What book would be a good place to start with in your opinion?

Graham, I appreciate your podcasts, they're always nice to have when stretching.



Well I great new book in paperback on Amazon is the one that I mentioned, which gives a dynasty by dynasty history and has a lot about Taiji history,
"Politics and Identity in Chinese Martial Arts"
that one will at least put things into perspective.

Also, read all the articles, which wind supporting everything in my book, on the great CMA internal arts history website
by Jarek
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/

Between the both of them, it will prepare you for my book.

I have had a lot of Chinese born martial arts teachers (who are of old age) tell me that they love my book and lays out the issues without being stuck in lineage support.
They felt I gave a neutral view point.

BTW, ha ha, the Chinese Ministry of Information tried to break into my computer back when I was still writing the first draft.
My cable provider told me they intercepted and blocked their efforts (back when computer hacking was new).
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Re: Heretical history of Tai Chi

Postby salcanzonieri on Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:06 pm

this is an important article to read, especially all the foot notes

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html
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